Date: 02/06/03 04:08 PM
Author: Hogg
Subject: RE: RE: ..
"Let me give you an example. Bench pressing leads to
microtrauma, but bench pressing does not have a cause and
effect relationship with injuries. However, if one has a
strength imbalance between the pressing muscles and the
external rotation muscles, the microtrauma experienced from
benching could turn this imbalance into an injury. Clearly,
neither the bench pressing nor the microtrauma that resulted
from bench pressing caused the injury. What they did do,
however, was accentuate the already pre-existing strength
imbalance...resulting in an injury. "
Ummm, okay, of the 50 or so cases of pectoralis ruptures per
year reported to the American College of Sports Medicine,
the majority occur while the athlete is bench
pressing...flat bench pressing....and it is the result of
the pectoralis being stretched at the bottom of the lift to
its elastic limit and it thus yeilds. The lift itself
requires that the lifter place his body in a position which
is vulnerable when the pectoralis is loaded at the extreme
bottom in (what is) a very weak position. Are you saying
that the issue of stretching the pec to its elastic limit is
a result of having underdeveloped deltoids? It seems to me
that there exists a cause and effect relationship between
bench pressing and pectoralis injuries....or did Dave Tate
have underdeveloped deltoids?
Everyone on this board has a voice. If you want to tell
people that it is perfectly legitimate to train when sore
and that all of the world-class olympic and power lifters do
so, then hey, by all means, that is your choice. I see
things from a slightly different perspective and that is the
perspective of not having to make a living off of my
body.....frankly, I am a bit gun shy having been cut open
last year and I do not intend to allow that to happen
again.....and strangely enough, it happened when I trained
while still sore....with less than 80% of my 1RM.
(
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191379)
Date: 02/06/03 05:29 PM
Edited: 02/06/03 05:31 PM
Author: Freddy
Subject: RE: RE: ..
No, you misunderstood the example. Both the shoulders and
the pecs are overly developed in the pressing motion. The
rotator cuff tears and pec tears that result can be
attributed to a strength imbalance to the motion of
external rotation.
"External rotation" is the process of "pivoting" the upper
arm inside the shoulder socket. It is a neural problem,
and the fault has nothing to do with under developed pecs
or shoulders.
Movements that train the 'external rotation' of the arm:
Cuban rotations, upright rows, power cleans (and other
variations of cleans) etc.
Let me furthor develop my prior example of the bench
press.
First off, the person in this example has hugely developed
pecs, shoulders, and tris (both neurally and at the cell
level). The pressing motion is overly developed (bench
pressing, military pressing, dips etc), and the external
rotation motion has become underdeveloped. This motion
counter balances the pressing motion. As one becomes
overly dominant, uneven stress is put on the tendons, and
even the ligiments (muscles pulling on bone, which causes
bones to pull on bones).
Now, if this is the root of your problem, than clearly
microtrauma has nothing to do with it. Imagine that it
takes you anywhere between 1 day through 2 weeks to not
feel sore. After 2 weeks, you train bench press again.
Soreness is gone completely, yet your strength imbalance
between the two motions (pressing versus rotation) still
exist. BAM. Our athlete tears something in the shoulder
region (rotator cuff, pec, shoulder, something).
The problem wasn't soreness, it was the pre-existing
strength imbalance.
Microtrauma only EXPOSED this problem, it did not create
it.
Also, Dave Tate attributes a lot of his initial problems
with his chest/shoulder region to this very strength
imbalance, and its why so many WSB guys do cuban rotations
1-3 times a week!
(
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191447)
Date: 02/06/03 05:46 PM
Author: Hogg
Subject: RE: RE: ..
Ok, now I see what you are talking about.
Now, WRT the soreness issue, AM kinda explained what I
was saying but there is also a difference between
feeling totally blasted (for example, when you change to
new movements and train heavy) vs. feeling a little
'crisp' a couple days after training. Case in point,
hamstrings - I have trained hamstrings on days when I
felt a little tight and 'crisp' because it was the day
to train but....there have been days - specifically when
I started doing stiff-legged deadlifts instead of ham
curls - where it hurt like hell and I had no strength in
my hams when I tried to do leg curls in my second
session of the week - again, it was my scheduled day to
train them but training was impossible and futile given
the level of soreness experienced. I definitely avoid
training sore in the scenario that I just described
however I am not about to skip a session because of
feeling a little soreness/tightness that will go away
after a warmup.
I guess, in short, sometimes I fail to go into a verbose
mode when I make a comment and I usually end up having
to be verbose to fully explain my point...much as I
questioned your rotation term.
One other thing along the same lines of imbalance as you
had mentioned, JS mentioned a strength imbalance
relationship between chest and back, where the athlete
might be a bench press fanatic but less motivated to do
barbell rows. This is a little bit different than the
scenario that you discussed but similar in that an
undeveloped opposing muscle group can leave the athlete
unable to perform at optimum level or subject to injury
as well.
(
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191455)