Deca, Winstrol and Your Joints

[Millard Baker]

Deca, Winstrol and Your Joints

by Anthony Roberts

This article was originally published September 9, 2005 at Mindandmuscle.net)

I’ve been somewhat plagued by certain questions ever since I started reading about steroids a decade ago. Certain ideas just never sat well with me…and unfortunately, when I asked more questions, I only received similar answers. When I was introduced to the world of internet steroid boards about half a decade ago, I posed these same questions to the "powers that be" on the boards I was a member of. I received many of the same answers, but my private messages and e-mails to moderators and staff members on various boards asking for references or some kind of logic were all left unanswered. On occasion I was offered the profound advice that it’s "well known that…etc…" and told to stop asking. Well known to whom? It’s certainly not well known to me.

One of the most annoying and often repeated "well known fact" is that Nandrolone Decanoate (Deca) improves and soothes your joints by storing water in them. And, conversely, Winstrol has a "reverse osmotic" effect on your joints, which makes them ache when you use it, because it draws water out of your body, joints included. Reverse Osmotic? Wow…if we use really big words, maybe we’ll sound smart and people will stop asking questions. I believe this to be the dictum most anabolic steroid boards are founded on, and probably the way the staff on those boards begin their evening prayers…


http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/deca-durabolin-and-your-joints.htm

About the Author

Anthony Roberts is the author of the forthcoming book, Anabolic Steroids: The Ultimate Research Guide. His articles have appeared in top bodybuilding / steroid websites such as http://www.mesomorphosis.com, http://www.mindandmuscle.net, and http://www.t-nation.com
You are invited to attend the T-Nation Seminar in Washington, DC in January 2006 where Anthony will be featured as one of the speakers/participants that T-Nation has assembled for their roundtable discussion. For additional information, contact Phil at philltnation@yahoo.com and read the following threads:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=804289
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=845134

[RhinoChaser48]

Hooker - I haven't checked your references yet to see if your studies cover it or not, but......

Have you reviewed the data that links elevated estrogen and progesterone to tumor necrosis factor alpha and interluekin 6? These 2 bastards are hell on joints. My understanding is that, with adequate testosterone, a balance can be had -- keeping both TNF-a and IL-6 in check, so to say. Without testosterone, estrogen and progesterone are culprits in their elevation to damaging levels, (at least in those genetically susceptible).

Also, DHT appears to be neutral to TNF-a and IL-6, it does not seem to raise nor lower them.

[GHKid]

I think the article was very informative. It answered a lot of questions that I had. One question that is still left is how to stop the joint pain from occuring when you are on pre contest cycle and you are using anti-Es and Winstrol?? I know that simply taking anti-inflamatories ie..advil would be to easy...any ideas??

[RhinoChaser48]

Bump for my question above.

[hooker]

Originally Posted by RhinoChaser48

Bump for my question above.

Yes. I have.

And no, I don't consider it to be important, since my proposed theory fits all of the available data, both empirically as well as per the medical research, in every valid way I can see...while your question really doesn't fit or address adequately either the real-world effects we see from those drugs, nor the medical research.

Sorry, but this is about the third time I've been here this month...I don't come here, to this message board often at all...so I don't think your time is going to be well spent addressing questions to me here. This forum is to discuss articles...not necessarily to directly ask the author questions about them, I think.

So, by all means, discuss what I've written amongst yourselves. My current buisness interests have me very engaged with this website, but not really the message board portion of it.

[SWALE]

The enquiring mind is therefore left with the obvious impression the author wants to make money writing "therories" he cannot defend, and is unwilling/unable to discuss same.

He is certainly less likely to appear on a Board where there are intelligent members who can challenge the validity of the author's claims. His time is truly better spent trying to impress the ignorant elsewhere.

[Millard Baker]

SWALE,

I take exception to your characterization of MESO-Rx readers who only read the articles on the main part of the meso site.

So, the 300+ daily visitors to the forum are the smart readers?

And the 10,000+ daily visitors to the rest of my site are the ignorant readers?

It seems to me that it is a better use of a writer's time to post an article on the main MESO-Rx site rather than the forum. Posting an article in the forum might get 3,000 reads per year. A new article posted in the main site might get 3,000 reads IN A SINGLE DAY.

There are a lot of "smart" readers who never visit the forums and only read the MESO articles.

And there are a lot of "smart" readers who post regularly in the forum AND read the articles.

and of course, ignorant people are everywhere...

[RhinoChaser48]

Originally Posted by hooker

Yes. I have.

And no, I don't consider it to be important, since my proposed theory fits all of the available data, both empirically as well as per the medical research, in every valid way I can see...

Why didn't you mentioned them in your article? They are major players here and are influenced heavily by hormonal manipulation.

while your question really doesn't fit or address adequately either the real-world effects we see from those drugs, nor the medical research.

I don't really understand what you are saying here.

[SWALE]

Admin--I am sorry if I did not word my response well. What I am saying is that it seems Meso is the only Board where this guy's nonsense is being questioned (that I know of). I just have a lot of respect to those who read at Meso--including the visitors, of course. I would hope they come here to read some evidence-based fact, instead of blindly following the blatherings of a guy who professes to be some kind of an expert on Endocrinology, even though he obviously has had not one day's training in the science, or the art. He proved that when he posted that "SERM's lower estrogen" (while actually pretending to lecture ME on the subject). No one who knows anything about the topic would ever make such a stupid statement. That is what I have been telling the good readers here at Meso--Anthony Roberts is a total phony. He obviously has no clue as to the pharmacology, physiology, biochemistry or medicine involved. Yet he has made a name for himself across the boards? How sad are we?

I read where he recommends finasteride as part of PCT. Now THAT makes sense: besides further--and profoundly--disrupting the very metabolic pathways we are trying to restore, let's add in a drug which is known to cause weakness, fatigue, depression and impotence in men who are facing great risk of weakness, fatigue, depression and impotence at the end of a cycle. Does that really make sense to anyone?

I was emailed by one of our members to say this character also has recommended basically taking a bath in spironolactone. I am dying to hear his reasoning behind that one.

The reason the writer does not respond is because he cannot. His writings are nonsense and everyone is coming to know that. Notice he has not responded even once to the facts of science I have presented which totally contradict his statements? All he can do instead is post idiocy in the form of insults. How "FONZ" of him.

Having said that, if his nonsense is being questioned on other Boards, then bully for them!

[SFINX]

Taking a bath in Spironolactone

What the f*ck is this guy talking about

[SWALE]

I was just pointed to an article at Mind and Muscle (which has just offered me a job writing for them--it would be full time just counteracting this Anthony Roberts' nonsense), called "Fixing your Thyroid with HCG" that is pure BS. What on earth could this guy be thinking? He is under some illusiuon that he can read a scientific study, thinks he understands it, thinks he has even the briefest clue as to the mechanisms involved, then can magically come up with some revolutionary treatment protocol. There is not one whit of sense in the aforementioned article.

I guess I'll have to try to bring Mr. Roberts back to earth with one simple question: why do you think "fat farms" quit using HCG long, long ago? As in 20 years ago?

This guy is actually dangerous. And he is definitely, by his own repeated admissions, practicing medicine without a license. The Authorities are watching.

It is hilarious in his writing how he so likes to insult and denegrate others, when he is so completely clueless.

[Deacon]

Swale - if you notice he is also using things that you, Pheedno and Nandi wrote about 3-4 years ago

I question the validity of his comments daily - he makes comments with little or no fact behind them and has nothing that will back them up - he doesnt even have real life experiences in what he is writing about - I agree with you Swale - he is a phony or at best a charlatin

[SWALE]

...and a dangerous one. He is hurting those who are so naive as to follow his stupid advice.

While deluding himself into thinking he has somehow come up with some revolutionary treatment protocol, Mr. Roberts has not given one thought (because he has not the knowledge base to do so) to the effects of administering HCG to females. For God's sake.

[Deacon]

case in point - what I do not care for is his plagurizing of other's work - which mysteriously pops over and over in his work

[hooker]

Originally Posted by Deacon

case in point - what I do not care for is his plagurizing of other's work - which mysteriously pops over and over in his work

Using a study that someone else once used is not plagurizing.

Copy/pasting everything you ever post is pathetic, though.

I've noticed that you copy/paste everything Big Cat writes (you've reposted nearly every profile he's ever written)...and... interestingly, he was reading my profiles on Steroid.com, and e-mailed me saying that they were the only worthwhile thing there.

Just a thought.

[supwiz]

I have read both Anthony Roberts and Swale's messages, and have learned from both writers. The art(everybody is so different) in hormonal modulation is to know thru trial and error what works for you.I call on and consult with many anti-aging doctors and from my experience they are not always accurate in their assessments in all aspects of hormone and nutritional therapy as well(even tho they also have good reputations). I'm not saying I always agree with Anthony, or for that matter Swale,tho I do find some of his points(as well as Swales) valuable. Both keep up the good work-and please keep the ego to yourselves, we are all just trying to find answers.