Rationale for the Use of Aromasin with Tamoxifen During PCT

[Millard Baker]

Rationale for the Use of Aromasin with Tamoxifen During Post Cycle Therapy

Aromasin (Exemestane) is one of those weird compounds that nobody really knows what to do with. What we generally hear about it makes it very uninteresting…It’s a third generation Aromatase Inhibitor (AI) just like Arimidex (Anastrozole) and Femera (Letrozole). Both of those two drugs are very efficient at stopping the conversion of androgens into estrogen, and since we have them, why bother with Aromasin? It’s a little harder to get than the other two commonly used aromatase inhibitors, because it’s not in high demand, and there’s never been a readily apparent advantage to using it. So, why would we need another AI and how can it be useful?


http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...exemestane.htm

[JoeyNess]

great article

[SWALE]

Make sure to go over to the other Forum here, and read my comments, before following any of the advice Mr. Anthony Roberts gives. The simple fact is that none of it stands up to any true scientific evaluation. I am concerned guys will make things worse, not better, if they listen to someone who has no idea what he is talking about.

[w_llewellyn]

Although the data on males is lacking (understandably so given the target market), there is some evidence that estrogen suppression with aromatase inhibitors causes the body to respond/adapt with an increase in sensitivity to estrogens, both by upregulating estrogen receptor levels and increasing E2 signaling via other pathways. This would not favor recovery. A lot of talk as of late on gyno caused AFTER PCT ended, when the PCT included an aromatase inhbitior. I am not knocking AR for coming up with this theory. Theories are good. But it is still a theory, and like all theories it will not be fact until it is proven and accepted. I am not so sure this one ultimately will be.

AI induced "estrogen hypersensitivty" aside, I am still inclined to think that AIs are an unnecessary addition given an environment that already favors lower E2 stimualtion and higher LH output.

Just my .02.

[SWALE]

Interesting, William.

I am also concerned with lowering E's too far status post AAS, thereby unnecessarily extending the period of plaque deposition within the cardiovascular system.

The idea of employing AI's during PCT is certainly not a new one. But the idea that a more expensive and hard-to-obtain type of same is preferable completely unwarranted by the arguemetns provided in this paper.

I certainly would recommend all users of testosterone during AAS use maintain somewhat normal estrogen levels DURING the cycle, as this, by my experience, helps in restoring the system following the cycle.

And this leads to the best reason to NOT use an AI (once testosterone conversion has subsided to the point E's are no longer elevated), or finasteride, or any of the other nonsensical ideas this Robert's character has come up with: the underlying goal during PCT is to normalize the metabolic pathways. Employing powerful endocrine disrupters is contraindicated to that end.

[SWALE]

Another point which needs to be made is the failure of many (I have not read where Roberts has recomended this) to properly taper their SERM's at the end of PCT.

As Dr. Shippen and I have each discovered independently, and discussed in a private conversation at an A4M conference in Las Vegas over two years ago, just 25mg of Clomid is indeed a whalloping dose with respect to HPTA-stimulation. I therefore would want to see dosage decreases in 5 day increments, with the last step at 12.5mg QD.

[kethnaab]

both clomid and tamox tapered down to 12.5, in 50% decrements every 5 days?

[SWALE]

The Nolvadex is taperd to 2.5gms QD.

[w_llewellyn]

Originally Posted by SWALE

Interesting, William.

I am also concerned with lowering E's too far status post AAS, thereby unnecessarily extending the period of plaque deposition within the cardiovascular system.

The idea of employing AI's during PCT is certainly not a new one. But the idea that a more expensive and hard-to-obtain type of same is preferable completely unwarranted by the arguemetns provided in this paper.

I certainly would recommend all users of testosterone during AAS use maintain somewhat normal estrogen levels DURING the cycle, as this, by my experience, helps in restoring the system following the cycle.

And this leads to the best reason to NOT use an AI (once testosterone conversion has subsided to the point E's are no longer elevated), or finasteride, or any of the other nonsensical ideas this Robert's character has come up with: the underlying goal during PCT is to normalize the metabolic pathways. Employing powerful endocrine disrupters is contraindicated to that end.

You make some good points.. The cardiovascular risks with AI's especially are too often overlooked. Personally, I've had some of my best lipid profiles during the post cycle window while taking Nolvadex. I'd never trade it for or even add in an AI myself.

I agree with your general line of thought here. The focus should be on returning endocrine balance post cycle. I could see how skewing this balance for the sake of increasing serum T a little more quickly might not be the best overall strategy for recovery. Perhaps it can just lead to more problems.

There are a number of people reporting delayed onset gyno after PCT had ended. The PCT programs invariably have a strong AI in them. It seems to be happening with enough frequency that I think "something" is definitely going on with AI's. Estrogen and LH do not seem to be the weak links post cycle anyway, so is there really any advantage to major E2 suppression here?

[SWALE]

Agreed on all points.

[Deacon]

this is a great discussion - I hope you guys keep going

[SWALE]

I am going to produce a paper demonstrating the numerous and sundary errors in Roberts' ideas soon.

Stay tuned at Meso!

[SFINX]

Ok Swale,we are all waiting for it!

[SWALE]

I'll get to it, Bro.

I have been busy demonstrating how Anthony Roberts' paper on finasteride use at the end of a cycle is not only, well, stupid, but may also be dangerous for anyone naive enough to follow his advice.

The issue of "HCG to stimulate thyroid" is next, in my "Questions" thread in the Anabolic Forum. It's obvious this guy just runs a Medline search, then posts any study which has two associated phrases in it; in this case the words "HCG" and "thyroid"--even though the studies do not prove his point in any way, and may indeed not even have anything to do with the topic at hand.

Of course, he has no answer to any of this, other than to call me his "bitch". LOL.

[SFINX]

Yes indeed,and what about the:"taking a bath in spironolactone" theory?
I think he said that on the bodybuilding4life.com forums.

[hooker]

Originally Posted by w_llewellyn

I am not knocking AR for coming up with this theory. Theories are good. But it is still a theory, and like all theories it will not be fact until it is proven and accepted. I am not so sure this one ultimately will be.

Just my .02.

Many people feel that alot of theories are bad....

All oral cycles, cycles with no testosterone, and stuff like that are generally considered to be terrible ideas in this day and age. Yet...some still support them, for whatever reason.

In general though, those cycles have not stood the test of time, and are not accepted anymore by the majority of athletes and bodybuilders I know.

Different strokes for different folks.

I'd say different paradigms for different....something or other, but I can't think of a word that rhymes with "paradigm"...

[w_llewellyn]

Originally Posted by hooker

cycles with no testosterone, and stuff like that are generally considered to be terrible ideas in this day and age. Yet...some still support them, for whatever reason.

In general though, those cycles have not stood the test of time, and are not accepted anymore by the majority of athletes and bodybuilders I know.

I grew up during the Deca/D-bol era, one of the most widely-used and accepted steroid stacks of all time. I appreciate that you may disagree with the inclusion of a stack like this in my book, but am curious as to what basis you would have for it.

Testosterone is an excellent hormone, and the most popular base drug for sure. I don't remember it ever becoming a necessity for every single cycle though.

[kethnaab]

i'll chime in here on this one, Mr. LL.

in doing my research and asking questions all across the boards, if you post a cycle that doesn't have test in it, you will get jumped.

Well, if your name isn't W Llewellyn, you will get jumped. :P

I believe that is what he is referring to.

or not, I could be wrong!

[SWALE]

The test, so to speak, is, was and always will be whether the metabolic pathways of the body are taken into consideration, along with physiological response and pharmacokinetics. There is simply none of this any any of Roberts' ideas. The fact he has never learned anything about any of these important topics is an excellent starting point to explain why.

Roberts, you are no one to argue, or even question, Bill Llewellyn. He has forgotten more about this stuff than you will ever know. Have some respect for someone who has actually put in the time and study.

William: if you get Roberts to actually provide an answer--any competent answer--to your question, this would be a first for him here.

My concern is when estrogen is driven too low. Given proper aromatization, that should not be a problem, even when a testosterone is not included in a cycle.