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General Discussion: This is a discussion on 2d 4d ratio, very interesting within the Discussion forums, part of the extensive steroid information at MESO-Rx; Two studies to look at. The first done by Times magazine at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle3465806.ece The future is digital. So says Professor ...

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Old 09-07-2009, 05:53 PM
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Default 2d 4d ratio, very interesting

Two studies to look at. The first done by Times magazine at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle3465806.ece
The future is digital. So says Professor John Manning, a psychologist and self-styled “finger expert” who has developed an unsettling academic obsession with other people’s hands. He claims that he can inspect a stranger’s fingers – specifically his index and ring fingers – and instantly know whether or not they have an aptitude for running or football. He can also take an informed view of whether the stranger might have a higher than usual risk of suffering early heart failure and even make (usually accurate) assumptions about their sexuality.

Of course, he could just as easily ask a few questions that would lead to the same conclusions - but where would be the fun in that?

Manning, an affable Geordie with an infectious giggle, has been researching his finger theories for 10 years. Now semi-retired, he has worked as professor of psychology at the University of Central Lancashire and is currently affiliated to a research institute in Southampton.

So should we take his finger-work seriously? Well, there’s no doubt that his findings have the whiff of palmistry about them, but he insists that his theories are rooted in solid research.

The science works as follows. In the early stages of pregnancy, foetuses are bombarded with sex hormones (testosterone and oestrogen) that affect the way they develop. Foetuses that are exposed to more testosterone, for instance, have a much better chance of becoming athletically superior to their less testosteronised contemporaries.

The trouble is, there’s no accurate way to measure testosterone exposure in the womb. However, we do know that the length of one’s ring finger compared with the length of one’s index finger provides a reasonably accurate indication. If the ring finger is longer than the index finger, it is likely that the person was exposed to more testosterone in the womb – and that, Manning says, can tell us a great deal. The “finger ratio”, he says, is “a living fossil” of the early period of pregnancy.

Finger ratios are calculated simply by measuring the index finger of the right hand, then the ring finger, and dividing the former by the latter. Those with a longer ring finger have a ratio of less than 1. This is called the “Casanova pattern”. Those with higher, or more feminised ratios, will have ratios greater than 1. The average ratio for men is 0.98.

Perhaps most intriguing is the link between finger ratio and disease. “The theory’s quite simple,” Manning says. “Our early exposure to testosterone and oes-trogen has a fundamental effect on how organs are formed. That may well affect predisposition in later life to disease.”

He is particularly interested in looking at diseases that affect one sex more than the other – or that might progress faster in, say, men than women – and correlating them to finger ratios. “If you look at diseases across the board, they often show sex differences.” True, this research is in its infancy, but there are already definite patterns emerging.

Take osteoarthritis, for example. Individuals with masculinised digit ratios [those towards the 0.9 end of the spectrum] tend to present early with osteoarthritis, he says. Another researcher will soon be publishing a study that suggests cervical cancer is more prevalent in women with very feminised ratios. It all sounds a bit alarming.

But Manning cautions us against jumping to unwelcome conclusions. There are many anecdotal exceptions to these rules, he says, and not all of the correlations he has worked on are “copper-bottomed”. He has also not yet determined exactly why certain finger ratios should be connected to certain predispositions to disease.

When it comes to sexuality or sporting ability, though, Manning is more confident.

He is “reasonably sure”, for instance, that more gay men have feminised finger ratios than straight men. This is an extraordinary claim. “And it’s quite a hard one to prove, because certain studies have had it different ways,” he admits. “But we did a large study with the BBC recently, and it seemed to show that gay guys are more likely to have had less testosterone exposure. Why that should be so, we don’t know.”

Manning is also pretty certain that in sports such as long-distance running, football and rugby, masculinised finger ratios are a way of measuring natural talent. So, in the journalistic tradition of conducting deeply unscientific experiments, I drag him and his finger-measuring calliper out to a specialist indoor running track in Cardiff to test his theories on a group of elite athletes.

Three potential sporting stars have agreed to have their fingers measured. They are Fay Pittman, a 25-year-old former gymnast who has switched to multi-event athletics; Dan Turner, a promising 23-year-old footballer, and Richardo Childs, 23, a long jumper. They are all a little jittery. “Of course,” Manning says. “No one likes to be told they haven’t got a good ratio.”

Pittman, who looks far from manly, has an astonishingly low finger ratio of 0.9, indicating high foetal testosterone exposure. It’s a classic Casanova pattern. “Well, that is astonishing,” Manning says. Pittman shrugs her shoulders and laughs. “It’s always nice to know you’ve got potential,” she says.

Turner’s and Childs’s finger ratios yield more surprising results. Childs’s is low - 0.9 - indicating that, like Pittman, he had a high exposure to testosterone in the womb, but Turner’s is about average, at 0.97. Sensitive to Turner’s feelings, Manning tells him that the last person he measured who had a 0.97 ratio was the footballer Geoff Hurst.

But there’s no disguising the footballer’s mild disappointment. He brightens up only when the professor points out that finger ratio is just a “probabilistic” indicator and that there are, of course, many other factors, including genetics, at work.

We are then joined by Lynn Davis, the president of UK Athletics and winner of the gold medal for the long jump at the 1964 Olympics in Tokyo. Manning cannot hide his excitement. His calliper shakes as he fumbles with Davis’s fingers.

What he finds is a ratio of 0.93, exactly the same as that of Jonathan Edwards, the world-record-breaking British triple-jumper. “Are you saying I could go far?” Davis says, deadpan. “Well, it’s never too late for a comeback,” Manning replies.

Spotting athletic potential in a man who was at his peak four decades ago is probably a waste of time. But Manning is convinced that finger measurement could be the key to finding the stars of tomorrow. “I’m sure we could look at a group of kids and see which ones had potential to be middle-distance and long-distance runners, where the correlation is very strong,” he says.

“My personal opinion is that you could also use this method to spot football talent. The definitive study would be to measure a group of 12-year-old footballers and follow them until the age of 18. We’ve started studies along those lines in various places, and we’re waiting for the data to come through. ” Davis, in his role as head of UK Athletics, seems to be taking what Manning says seriously. He gratefully accepts a bundle of scientific papers to read later. “Why not?” he says. “If it works, it works. Of course, there are many other factors involved, notably a desire to train and how quickly a person matures.”

For now talent-spotting is restricted to more traditional tools, such as stopwatches. But in the future, who knows? If Manning could prove that finger ratios have a direct bearing on sporting ability, then callipers might soon become the must-have accessory for competitive dads.

The Finger Book, by John Manning, is published by Faber & Faber on March 6 at £12.99

Finding your finger ratio

Place your right hand palm up Measure the length of your index finger, from where it joins your palm to the tip

Measure your ring finger in the same way

Divide the length of the index finger by that of the ring finger to calculate your ‘finger ratio’
average for men 0.98

Testosterone levels and length
The length of a man's fingers can reveal how physically aggressive he is, Canadian scientists have said.

The shorter the index finger is compared to the ring finger, the more boisterous he will be, University of Alberta researchers said.

But the same was not true for verbal aggression or hostile behaviours, they told the journal Biological Psychology after studying 300 people's fingers.


The trend is thought to be linked to testosterone exposure in the womb.

It has been known for some time that there is a direct correlation between finger lengths and the amount of the male sex hormone testosterone that a baby is exposed to in the womb. In women, the two fingers are usually almost equal in length, as measured from the crease nearest the palm to the fingertip. In men, the ring finger tends to be much longer than the index.

Other studies looking at finger length ratio have suggested that, in men, a long ring finger and symmetrical hands are an indication of fertility, and that women are more likely to be fertile if they have a longer index finger.

One study found boys with shorter ring fingers tended to be at greatest risk of a heart attack in early adulthood, which was linked to testosterone levels.

In the current study, Dr Peter Hurd and his student Allison Bailey measured the fingers of 300 undergraduates at their university. Men with the shortest index fingers scored higher on measures of physical aggression than those with longer index fingers, but the study's findings did not apply to women.

Dr Hurd is now looking at male hockey players to see whether there is any correlation between finger lengths and each player's penalty record for contact and fouling during matches.

Professor John Manning from the University of Central Lancashire's department of psychology, who first realised that sex hormone exposure in the womb influences finger length, agreed. He said certain individual characteristics correlate better with finger length than others.

For example, if you had a group of runners and they were about to start a race he claims he could predict reasonably well who was going to win based on their finger length, but he would not be able to predict whether someone was neurotic or not.

Researcher's claim Dr Hurd's findings are logical based on what we know about finger length, testosterone exposure and aggression, but said more research was needed to confirm the findings.

Another recent study had found women exposed to higher levels of testosterone in the womb, and hence a more 'male' pattern of finger length, displayed more frustrated behaviour when answering challenging telephone calls than other women.

Perhaps that explains the frustration some of us have with directory assistance.

Any input?
athletic ability=finger ratio. who would've thought

Last edited by m_ob; 09-07-2009 at 06:01 PM. Reason: new article
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Old 09-07-2009, 09:32 PM
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Default Re: 2d 4d ratio, very interesting

they still don't know what the fuck they're talking about on this issue...just a year or two ago they were saying that increased androgen exposure in-utero predisposed both men and women to be gay, and that for males, the more older brothers you have, the more likely you are ot be gay for the same reason: successive pregnancies with male offspring raise the androgen levels of the womb.

btw, my finger ratio is .939, with my ring finger longer than my index finger...and i'm as gaily-gay as gay can be gaily gay-gay.
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Old 09-07-2009, 11:50 PM
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Default Re: 2d 4d ratio, very interesting

haha so your gaily-gay but are you athletic?
if so that would prove something.
One thing you can't deny is the fact that it does prove more testosterone exposure in the womb why it matters I have no idea lol.
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Old 09-08-2009, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: 2d 4d ratio, very interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_ob View Post
haha so your gaily-gay but are you athletic?
if so that would prove something.
One thing you can't deny is the fact that it does prove more testosterone exposure in the womb why it matters I have no idea lol.
ermm, let's be clear: a general elevation of intrauterine testosterone levels has been shown to occur in the wombs of women who have successive pregnancies with male offspring. a general correlation has been found between intrauterine testosterone levels and 2d/4d length-ratio. Furthermore, some correlation has been indicated (not quite "found") between intrauterine androgen levels and adult sexual orientation (whether one's erotic interests skew towards males or females), as well as gender orientation (how "butch" or "femme" one feels/acts oneself), as well as (according to this researcher) one's athletic capability/disposition...however, WHAT that correlation actually will turn out to be is in contradictory dispute, as I wrote above.

Science is only now at the threshold of being able to argue correlation vs causation on the issue of intrauterine hormones in general, let alone deduce causation on any specific question with any confidence worth mentioning. i wouldn't be surprised at some connection, but the claims of the article are simplistic and hypey.
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