Hey Sensational

[Bob Smith]

In one of the other threads you said "when it comes to money and free loader programs....well for the most part I oppose them."

Im confused as to what it means to be socially liberal and yet oppose most freeloader programs, which Ill assume you mean welfare (any others? I think SS is mostly a freeloader program, too). Can you clarify that a little bit?

[Sensational]

It means I was tired and didn't clarify as I should have. Some welfare programs are needed IMO, there are people who cannot get off their feel without help. Sadly though, abusing these programs is too easy, and it pisses me off to pay for someone to sit on their ass and do nothing. I believe you make your own breaks in life, and the government intervention should be minimal. However, I hate to see children grow up with disadvantages because of their parents mishaps, and I would like to help them if I can. Lately I have just made up my mind that welfare is ineffectual, and a new program needs to be installed.

When I said I was socially liberal I was meaning that I believe in freedom of choice and the rights of the individuals. I am against gun control (thinking of joining NRA), and most programs that give the government too much power. Come to think of it, I may be less liberal than I profess sometimes...

As far as other spending programs, I think spending money on education is paramount. I believe that education is the ticket out of our economic recession. Like Bill Clinton said "the jobs that are gone, are gone forever, new ones will have to be made through ingenuity." Ingenuity usually requires and education. However, once again, our spending has gotten out of hand lately. The Review board on teachers seems to be ineffective (my mother is a teacher), and kids are dropping out every day.

However, college is too damn expensive these days, and it has been pissing me off lately. I hope this clarifies my stance a little bit, as I wrote the other message after I got back from work and was tired~Sensational

[hardcore210]

Spending money on education is a waste of time. If you know anyone involved in the public school system, they'll tell you it's a joke. Teachers and administrators have no control over classrooms or students due to a fear of lawsuits, violent outbursts, and losing their jobs. The kids don't want to learn, and they are the ones who actually control things whether they realize it or not. I know of many schools where teachers aren't allowed to give zeros on assignments. Kids can turn in a piece of paper with nothing more than their name, and they get SOME kind of credit. WTF is that shit?! Parents need to butt out and let the schools handle things. As soon as corporal punishment was removed, shit hit the fan.

HC210

[Sensational]

Originally Posted by hardcore210

Spending money on education is a waste of time. If you know anyone involved in the public school system, they'll tell you it's a joke. Teachers and administrators have no control over classrooms or students due to a fear of lawsuits, violent outbursts, and losing their jobs. The kids don't want to learn, and they are the ones who actually control things whether they realize it or not. I know of many schools where teachers aren't allowed to give zeros on assignments. Kids can turn in a piece of paper with nothing more than their name, and they get SOME kind of credit. WTF is that shit?! Parents need to butt out and let the schools handle things. As soon as corporal punishment was removed, shit hit the fan.

HC210

No offense bro, but that is not the way it is where I am. So teachers have NO control huh? And people involved in the public school system will tell me its a joke? How come no one I know in the public school system tells me its a complete joke? From what I hear it is the administrators that are overpaid and underworked....after all it is their duty to evaluate the teachers, and obviously, a lot of crummy teachers are still employed. Teachers I know give lots of zero's on assignments. If kids are cheating, its a zero, if they get none right, its a zero et cetera.

What then do you propose we do then HC210? Do we just totally get rid of public education? It is easy to be a critic of a system without proposing a better idea; but it is harder and more useful to suggest an alternative.

I think that bad parenting is the cause of alot of schools problems. Granted some kids will be bad no matter how they are parented, but parents have a huge influence over their children. Nothing frustrates me more than to see a child have their parents support when the child is nothing more than a lazy no good liar. Parents are key IMO~Sensational

[thick]

just spicing the thread up a bit
Bill & Hillary:
Worse than you thought & worth remembering and this came from a Democrat

Dear Mr. Ex President Clinton:

I recently saw a bumper sticker that said, "Thank me, I voted for Clinton-Gore." So, I sat down and reflected on that, and I am sending my "Thank you" for what you have done, specifically:

1. Thank you for introducing us to Jennifer Flowers, Paula Jones, Monica Lewinsky, Dolly Kyle Browning, Kathleen Willey, and Juanita Broderick. Did I leave anyone out?

2. Thank you for teaching my 8 year old about oral sex. I had really planned to wait until he was a little older to discuss it with him, but now he knows more about it than I did as a senior in college.

3. Thank you for showing us that sexual harassment in the work place (especially the White House) and on the job is OK, and all you have to know is what the meaning of "is" is. It really is great to know that certain sexual acts are not sex, and one person may have sex while the other one does NOT have sex.

4. Thank you for reintroducing the concept of impeachment to a new generation and demonstrating that the ridiculous plot of the movie "Wag the Dog" could be plausible after all.

5. Thanks for making Jimmy Carter look competent, Gerald Ford look graceful, Richard Nixon look honest, Lyndon Johnson look truthful, and John Kennedy look moral.

6. Thank you for the 73 House and Senate witnesses who have pled the 5th Amendment and 17 witnesses who have fled the country to avoid testifying about Democratic campaign fund raising.

7. Thank you, for the 19 charges, 8 convictions, and 4 imprisonment's from the Whitewater "mess" and the 55 criminal charges and 32 criminal convictions (so far) in the other "Clinton" scandals.

8. Thanks also for reducing our military by half, "gutting" much of our foreign policy, and flying all over the world on "vacations" carefully disguised as necessary trips.

9 Thank you, also, for "finding" millions of dollars (I really didn't need it in the first place, and I can't think of a more deserving group of recipients for my hard-earned tax dollars) for all of your globe-trotting. I understand you, the family and your cronies have logged in more time aboard Air Force One than any other administration.

10. Now that you've left the White House, thanks for the 140 pardons of convicted felons and indicted felons-in-exile. We will love to have them rejoin society. (Not to mention the scores you pardoned while Governor of Arkansas)

11. Thanks also for removing the White House silverware. I'm sure that Laura Bush didn't like the pattern anyway. Also, enjoy the housewarming gifts you've received from your "friends."

12. Thanks to you and your staff in the West Wing of the White House for vandalizing and destroying government property on the way out. I also appreciate removing all of that excess weight (China, silverware, linen, towels, ash trays, soap, pens, magnetic compass, flight manuals, etc.) out of Air Force 1. The weight savings means burning less fuel, thus less tax dollars spent on jet fuel. Thank you!

13. And finally, please ensure that Hillary enjoys the $8 million dollar advance for her "tell-all" book and you, Bill, the $10 million advance for your memoirs. Who says crime doesn't pay!

14. The last and most important point - thank you for forcing Israel to let Mohammed Atta go free. Terrorist pilot Mohammed Atta blew up a bus in Israel in 1986. The Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. As part of the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to agree to release so-called "political prisoners". However, the Israelis would not release any with blood on their hands. The American President at the time, Bill Clinton, and his Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, "insisted" that all prisoners be released. Thus Mohammed Atta was freed and eventually thanked the US by flying an airplane into Tower One of the World Trade Center. This was reported by many of the American TV networks at the time that the terrorists were first identified. It was censored in the US from all later reports. Why shouldn't Americans know the real truth?

What a guy!!

If you agree that the American public must be made aware of these facts, pass this on.
God bless America and THANK YOU (once again) for spending my taxes so wisely and frugally.

SINCERELY,
A US Citizen
PS.
Please pass along a special thank you to Al Gore for "inventing" the Internet, without which I would not be able to send this wonderful, factual e-mail.

AND THE REST OF THE STORY Hillary Rodham Clinton, as a New York State Senator, now comes under the "Congressional Retirement and Staffing Plan," which means that even if she never gets reelected, she STILL receives her Congressional salary until she dies. (Would it not be nice if all Americans were pension eligible after only 4 years?)

If Bill outlives her, he then inherits HER salary until HE dies. He is already getting his Presidential salary until he dies. If Hillary outlives Bill, she also gets HIS salary until she dies. Guess who pays for that?

WE DO!

It's common knowledge that in order for her to establish NY residency, they purchased a million dollar-plus house in upscale Chappaqua, New York. Makes sense. They are entitled to Secret Service protection for life. Still makes sense.

Here is where it becomes interesting. Their mortgage payments hover at around $10,000 per month. BUT, an extra residence HAD to be built within the acreage to house the Secret Service agents.

The Clintons charge the Federal government $10,000 monthly rent for the use of that extra residence, which is just about equal to their mortgage payment. This means that we, the taxpayers, are paying the Clinton's salary, mortgage, transportation, safety and security, as well as the salaries for their 12 man staff -- and, this is all perfectly legal!

When she runs for President, will you vote for her?

How many people can YOU send this to?

[Sensational]

HEY! Get your own thread! Thats funny though

[Bob Smith]

Thick, that is quite a list of things that all of us are paying for, in one way or another.

Sens, see...youre not such a hard nosed liberal after all! If I keep workin on it, you'll be pulled more and more towards the conservative side of the spectrum any day now. Im actually in agreement with you on most of what you posted.

the one place that I disagree is spending more on education. I dont believe education is what will end the recession (which has actually been over with for about 2 yrs now, though Id have to check the numbers to be 100% sure). Spending more on education is not the answer. Comparing $ spent per student in districts nationwide will show that it is not a good indicator of school effectiveness or student performance. Throwing money at the problem isnt the answer.

What I think needs to be done is to get rid of the national Dept of Education. As with most govt agencies, it is horribly inefficient and ineffective. My state gets back less than 70% of the money it sends to Washington. Why cant that money go to a state dept of education so that 100% of the money stays within my borders? The red tape of national agencies is horrendous and should be reduced as much as possible. By keeping funds within the states, they will be able to make decisions on the money and disbursements much better than what happens in some office thousands of miles away.

After talking with Jewel and listening to the different reports on the No Child Left Behind policy, I think that program is likely doing more harm than good. The intentions are good, but the way it is implemented is what is key. Power to make decisions should go back to the states and the individual school districts. I dont think that reducing administrators salaries will do anything. Im not totally sure what the Super gets in my district, but I think its around $140k. A lot, sure. But his job is to look over the entire district, teachers, sports, and so on. That is a ton of responsibility. Plus, how much difference would it make if his salary was reduced by $30k? In reality, nothing.

I wish every teacher was like Jewel. It would never happen, but it would be nice. She is 100% dedicated to educating the students and making sure they will far exceed the minimum standards. She finished her Masters at one of the top universities in the country and was even asked to teach there. She spent dozens (hundreds?) of hours reading all the research on student learning, teaching pedagogies, and what really works. IMO, her and teachers like her, should be able to run their classroom as they see fit. The problem lies in that you cant give that control to every teacher, since not every teacher can even stand next to her (and others) credentials and background.

Parents also need to take responsibility for their kids. If the kids are total f*ckups, its likely that the parents are, as well. Too many parents see the years of k-12 as low cost day care, not as a place where real learning happens. I got into this in the other thread a week or so ago. Parents side with the kids and want the kids self-esteem raised. It doesnt matter if the kid is dumb as shit as long as he feels good about himself. How screwed up is that thought process!! Unfortunately, that is a prevailing attitude in society today. *sigh*

[Grizzly]

Don't worry, Sensational, I got what you meant by socially liberal and fiscally conservative. Some of us are just more perceptive and intuitive than others.

Out of curiosity, what's your stance on drugs? How about capital punishment?

I'll add in my thoughts on the matter to facilitate further discussion.

Drugs: All of them, and I mean every single fucking one of them, should be legalized and sold OTC. As we all know, it is easier for a 15 year old to score coke, meth, heroin, pot, E, etc. than it is for them to get beer. So, put an age limit on their use like we did with alcohol. I believe this will also greatly reduce and, perhaps, even eliminate drug related crime. It would take the profit out of dealing, so the gang wars would become obsolete. For instance, when was the last time someone got killed for fucking up the alcohol trade? What, like 1935? While we're at it, let's legalize prostitution.

Capital Punishment: I'm all for it. However, I believe we should change the way it's done. If I were running things, executions would cost about 35 cents or whatever the going rate is for a 9mm cartridge. You get convicted, taken out back of the courthouse and summarily shot in the back of the head. Much cheaper than the million or so it costs now.

Furthermore, I would even go as far as being straight sadistic. Especially in the case of heinous crimes, I think we should kill the perp in the same manner he killed his victim/s. So, if a guy had raped, beaten and then stabbed a girl, then he would be summarily raped, beaten and stabbed to death. Maybe, just to make it more fun, he could just be raped to death.

There was a case about 10 years ago in Chicago where two young ghetto dwellers(like, 9 and 11 or some such ages) killed one of their friends because he wouldn't steal something for them. They held him over a balcony and when he refused, they dropped him. Yes, that's right, I firmly believe that those two fucksticks should have been hung over a balcony and dropped on their worthless, ghetto dwelling faces.

Let's discuss.

[thick]

definitely agree with the capital murder. than people cry about killing an innocent man. Well, the suspect might be innocent of that crime in small percentages but it's not like the accused is a stand up citizen. most of those wrongly accused already have huge felony records. dont have time for detail here but u catch my drift

[Sensational]

Originally Posted by Bob Smith

Thick, that is quite a list of things that all of us are paying for, in one way or another.

Sens, see...youre not such a hard nosed liberal after all! If I keep workin on it, you'll be pulled more and more towards the conservative side of the spectrum any day now. Im actually in agreement with you on most of what you posted.

the one place that I disagree is spending more on education. I dont believe education is what will end the recession (which has actually been over with for about 2 yrs now, though Id have to check the numbers to be 100% sure). Spending more on education is not the answer. Comparing $ spent per student in districts nationwide will show that it is not a good indicator of school effectiveness or student performance. Throwing money at the problem isnt the answer.

What I think needs to be done is to get rid of the national Dept of Education. As with most govt agencies, it is horribly inefficient and ineffective. My state gets back less than 70% of the money it sends to Washington. Why cant that money go to a state dept of education so that 100% of the money stays within my borders? The red tape of national agencies is horrendous and should be reduced as much as possible. By keeping funds within the states, they will be able to make decisions on the money and disbursements much better than what happens in some office thousands of miles away.

After talking with Jewel and listening to the different reports on the No Child Left Behind policy, I think that program is likely doing more harm than good. The intentions are good, but the way it is implemented is what is key. Power to make decisions should go back to the states and the individual school districts. I dont think that reducing administrators salaries will do anything. Im not totally sure what the Super gets in my district, but I think its around $140k. A lot, sure. But his job is to look over the entire district, teachers, sports, and so on. That is a ton of responsibility. Plus, how much difference would it make if his salary was reduced by $30k? In reality, nothing.

I wish every teacher was like Jewel. It would never happen, but it would be nice. She is 100% dedicated to educating the students and making sure they will far exceed the minimum standards. She finished her Masters at one of the top universities in the country and was even asked to teach there. She spent dozens (hundreds?) of hours reading all the research on student learning, teaching pedagogies, and what really works. IMO, her and teachers like her, should be able to run their classroom as they see fit. The problem lies in that you cant give that control to every teacher, since not every teacher can even stand next to her (and others) credentials and background.

Parents also need to take responsibility for their kids. If the kids are total f*ckups, its likely that the parents are, as well. Too many parents see the years of k-12 as low cost day care, not as a place where real learning happens. I got into this in the other thread a week or so ago. Parents side with the kids and want the kids self-esteem raised. It doesnt matter if the kid is dumb as shit as long as he feels good about himself. How screwed up is that thought process!! Unfortunately, that is a prevailing attitude in society today. *sigh*

Amazingly, I agree. I should have said that more responsible spending is what is needed. And good teachers, like Jewel apparently, are priceless. I think I will remember the teachers that helped me for the rest of my life. I think too many teachers see teaching as just an easy paycheck, rather than a career they are passionate about; and that is truly a tragedy. I don't know about changing to the conservative side, but in the very least I can help reform the democratic party...and if that doesn't work, change allegiances~Sensational

[Grizzly]

Originally Posted by thick

definitely agree with the capital murder. than people cry about killing an innocent man. Well, the suspect might be innocent of that crime in small percentages but it's not like the accused is a stand up citizen. most of those wrongly accused already have huge felony records. dont have time for detail here but u catch my drift

I was waiting for this point to be brought up. I didn't address it before because I didn't feel like writing a book.

I would do it "my way" in the open and shut cases that have no doubt about guilt. You know, the ones where the guy is on film doing it, his fingerprints are in the blood on the wall or, with our great new technology, his DNA is found in the seminal fluid of the formerly mentioned rape victim.

If it's open and shut, I see no reason for an appeals process. That's just stupid. On the other hand, if there is some doubt, then give the guy a chance. However, in most cases anymore, I'd bet there isn't that much doubt. Not from what I've seen on the Forensic Files on CourtTV.

[Sensational]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

Don't worry, Sensational, I got what you meant by socially liberal and fiscally conservative. Some of us are just more perceptive and intuitive than others.

Out of curiosity, what's your stance on drugs? How about capital punishment?

I'll add in my thoughts on the matter to facilitate further discussion.

Drugs: All of them, and I mean every single fucking one of them, should be legalized and sold OTC. As we all know, it is easier for a 15 year old to score coke, meth, heroin, pot, E, etc. than it is for them to get beer. So, put an age limit on their use like we did with alcohol. I believe this will also greatly reduce and, perhaps, even eliminate drug related crime. It would take the profit out of dealing, so the gang wars would become obsolete. For instance, when was the last time someone got killed for fucking up the alcohol trade? What, like 1935? While we're at it, let's legalize prostitution.

Capital Punishment: I'm all for it. However, I believe we should change the way it's done. If I were running things, executions would cost about 35 cents or whatever the going rate is for a 9mm cartridge. You get convicted, taken out back of the courthouse and summarily shot in the back of the head. Much cheaper than the million or so it costs now.

Furthermore, I would even go as far as being straight sadistic. Especially in the case of heinous crimes, I think we should kill the perp in the same manner he killed his victim/s. So, if a guy had raped, beaten and then stabbed a girl, then he would be summarily raped, beaten and stabbed to death. Maybe, just to make it more fun, he could just be raped to death.

There was a case about 10 years ago in Chicago where two young ghetto dwellers(like, 9 and 11 or some such ages) killed one of their friends because he wouldn't steal something for them. They held him over a balcony and when he refused, they dropped him. Yes, that's right, I firmly believe that those two fucksticks should have been hung over a balcony and dropped on their worthless, ghetto dwelling faces.

Let's discuss.

Okay grizz, as far as the prohibition of drugs, I pretty much agree. The war on drugs is worthless, and I believe that people should have the choice to mess up their life if that is what they want to do. Each mans life should be a collection of his choices, as long as they don't harm other people.

As far as capitol punishment is concerned, I am torn and have been for awhile. I can see the benefits for both sides of the argument. I have thought it over for a long time, and have come to the conclusion that however the people vote, I don't have a problem with it. Although spending 40 k on an inmate a year pisses me off.

I do disagree with the sadistic part. I can see your point and the reason for your apparent anger, but I just can't sanction "cruel and unusual punishment". If we did as you said, we would be no better than the criminal. And what if they were innocent? That would be a shitty way to go. Not committing an exceptionally heinous crime, and then getting sentenced to the same fate, ouch! It may sound korny, but people who commit these heinous crimes usually get what is coming to them outside of our justice system. I wouldn't advocate what happens to these criminals outside of our justice system, but I can pretend I don't know~Sensational

[hardcore210]

Sensational-
To tell you the truth, I can't offer a solution b/c things here seem too far gone. I do definitely agree w/you and BS about the lack of parenting is the root of the problem. Where I'm from, the excellent teachers are the ones being punished by the districts b/c they actually expect something out of their students. Too many students & parents complain about homework, assignments, curriculum, etc to the point where many, many wonderful teachers have been bought out, reassigned (in an attempt to get them to quit), or have unrealistic demands placed upon them to make a challenging job that much more difficult. In their place are complacent, uncaring, sub-par "baby sitters" that do nothing more than dilute the value of an education. When you take away the teachers'/administrators' ability to control the classroom, the value of an education in that environment is greatly diminished.

HC210

[Sensational]

Originally Posted by hardcore210

Sensational-
To tell you the truth, I can't offer a solution b/c things here seem too far gone. I do definitely agree w/you and BS about the lack of parenting is the root of the problem. Where I'm from, the excellent teachers are the ones being punished by the districts b/c they actually expect something out of their students. Too many students & parents complain about homework, assignments, curriculum, etc to the point where many, many wonderful teachers have been bought out, reassigned (in an attempt to get them to quit), or have unrealistic demands placed upon them to make a challenging job that much more difficult. In their place are complacent, uncaring, sub-par "baby sitters" that do nothing more than dilute the value of an education. When you take away the teachers'/administrators' ability to control the classroom, the value of an education in that environment is greatly diminished.

HC210

I think I understand better now, and I agree there are those problems~Sensational

[Grizzly]

Speaking of outside the justice system... How about in cases of revenge? Let's say that someone rapes your daughter and then gets off of the charges because of some techinicality. Call me crazy, but I think a guy is completely justified in killing the bastard. I don't even think he should be charged with any crime. Rather, he should be given a medal for heroism.