A Man's Home Is His Castle, Can He Defend It?

[role model]

The critical legal question is, Did Horn act in a reasonable way to defend his neighbor's property?




The case is of Joe Horn, a 61-year-old computer technician who lives in an affluent subdivision in Pasadena, Texas. Last November, he called 911 to report a burglary in broad daylight at the house next door.

"I've got a shotgun; you want me to stop him?" Horn asked the dispatcher.

"Nope. Don't do that," the dispatcher replied. "Ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?"

Horn was clearly upset by the dispatcher's response.

"I'm not gonna let them get away with it," he said. "I can't take a chance getting killed over this, OK."

Despite the dispatcher's protects, Horn said "I'm gonna shoot! I'm gonna shoot!"

The 911 dispatcher warned Horn to stay inside at least a dozen separate times, telling him, "An officer is coming out there. I don't want you to go outside that house."

Then Horn — sounding angrier by the moment — cited the new Texas law.

"OK, but I have a right to protect myself too, sir," he said. "And you understand that. And the laws have been changed in this country since September the first, and you know it and I know it."

Moments later, Horn saw two burglars leave his neighbor's house, one of them carrying a bag filled with cash and jewelry.

"I'm gonna kill him," Horn said.
"Stay in the house," the dispatcher said.
"They're getting away," Horn replied.
"That's all right," said the dispatcher. "Property's not worth killing someone over. OK?"
"***damn it," said Horn, who then defied the dispatcher.

"Well, here it goes, buddy, you hear the shotgun clicking, and I'm going," he said.

"Don't go outside," the dispatcher warned.

Self-Defense?

Horn says he came out his front door, down his porch and confronted the two burglars. The next sounds heard on the 911 tape are Horn ordering the two men to stop … and then shooting them both in the back.

"Move and you're dead," he said, and fired his shotgun three times.

"Both suspects were shot in the back," said Pasadena Police Captain A.H. "Bud" Corbett. "Not at the same angle, but both suspects were hit in the back."
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Defending a Home

Horn fatally shot the burglars, two illegal immigrants from Colombia.

A Houston grand jury will now hear the case. Horn turned down an ABC News request for an interview, but his attorney Tom Lambright insists Horn was entirely justified.

YOUR THE JURY What do you say?

[jmills]

I heard this on NPR not long ago...I think if you put yourself in the position of flagrantly invading a residence with the intent to commit a crime, then your ass is on the line. It would be difficult to say he was justified in shooting them : but IMHO they should have known the risk they were taking and he should not be held liable for their deaths.

If I percieved that my life may be in danger I would have done the same thing. What was that, his life wasnt in danger? Bullshit...How do we know that...these guys could have came back and killed him or burned his house down or done evil shit to his family because he could testify against them...we can't keep treating animals like people just because they walk on two legs, too many (truly) innocent lives forever lost or damaged already.

Bottom line, if you put yourself in a position like that then you are risking you life...don't get all pissed at this guy because he called them out. Who knows what he has suffered at the hands of criminals already? I think he should get a fine for discharging a fire arm in the city limits and go home.

But then again, I'm not a good litttle sheep so WTF do I know

[Reinheart]

If i were him, i would just shoot in the air to warn them so the answer is no.

[dennis]

Jmills..nice cheap shot bro ..although your post had many god points.If i were in that guys shoes I would not have gone out and shot them in the back..that was a bit too much.If they were robbing his house that might change my mind some but still do not think I would shoot them in the back outside..inside maybe..but i would try and detain them first....if they had a weapon and turned it anywhere near my direction I would dispose of them quickly, and I am a sheep ! The real problem here is the guys are illegal immagrants and should not even be here in the 1st place..now this guy who shot them will probably get in deep shit over the whole ordeal.

[jmills]

Cheap shot?
I swear I didn't intend any cheap shots...maybe i was trying to be funny but i have an odd sense of humor. Sorry if it came across like that, seriously.

And the fact that they were shot in the back is hard to overlook...which is why I said that I didnt think he was justified in shooting them. Of course, he could have fired in their direction at the same time they turned around?

I know, I know...thats crazy talk!....I'm just trying to find a way for it to be OK in my mind because I can easily see myself doing the same thing. Well, maybe not exactly the same thing...but maybe, who can tell how they will really react?

Heres a situation i was in not long ago. I'll try to keep it short:
I parked my motorcycle in a mall parking lot. When i came out it was gone. I went looking for it, thinking maybe one of my asshole friends had moved it as a joke (I'm really freaking particular about my bike, so i know this was a long shot but what else could I do?).
I come across this guy who had apparently pushed my bike out of sight behind a big SUV and was hovering over it....I asked him WTF...he looked up at me. He had a helmet on, he had a knife in his hand, he was taller and thicker than I am...we exchanged a few pleasantries, I told him he was not going anyfukingwhere at which time he told me "I'm going to cut you".

Now...I should have ran back into the mall and called the cops or the security or whatever...that would have been the smart thing to do, and probably everything would have worked out fine. But I looked at my bike and it was fucked up where he had cut the harness and tried to hotwire it, and scratched up where he had dropped it moving the damn thing...and I just thought "this MF is going to fuck up my property, then THREATEN me"????. Man, it was just tooooooo much.

The decision was made about the time he was verbalizing the "...oing to cu" part of that sentence and I was on his ass. Now....Imagine two Ken dolls with a thick rubber band wrapped around them...imagine them pulled waaay apart, then released. That is how i went to his ass. He did manage to tag me on my left arm (I carry two smallish scars), but I controlled the weapon and then made him release it, pulled him down while removing the helmet and choked him unconscious. He was completely unresponsive. THEN...I could have left it alone. Mission accomplished, right? But (and this is the part I keep playing over and over in my head) I lost my mind, and grabbed two big handfulls of hair and picked his big fukin head up off the pavement and pounded him harder than I have ever hit anyone in my life in the face with my right knee...3 times. Exactly 3 times. 1....2...3....each one with all of my strenght and will behind it. I had a bruise on my knee for weeks, and I don't bruise. I'm serious, I just don't. He had broken bones in his face. He went to the emergency room, then jail. I went home and I was applauded by the local police...I think it helped that he was much bigger than I, and that he had a rap sheet, and that he had stolen an old ladys car to use as his getaway vehicle...she was an old lady that worked at walmart, no way she would have insurance to cover her car.

So was i justified? I really don't think I was...but i WANT to be...it just feels RIGHT to do what I did, but the only difference between what I did and what that guy did is a difference of degree, not a difference of kind, ya know? Basically the same thing...I decided to be the one who punished this guy. And i punished him because he messed up some stuff, and I didnt think the authorities would do jack shit to the guy, so I took matters in my own hands....no other real reason. So that is why I guess i want to be able to justify in my heart that this guy should not be punished. And to illustrate that you just never know how you might react in a given situation.

What do you think?

[perseverance]

Originally Posted by jmills

So was i justified? I really don't think I was...

screw that man. you were justified in my eye. he got exactly what he deserved and he's lucky you only hit him three times cuz i know for a fact i would have hit him till i couldn't hit him anymore. that whole thing about property isn't worth hurting a person is crap. i'm sure you worked and saved money till you could buy the bike and then someone is gonna come up and try to take it from you? hell no, he deserved to get the living shit kicked out of him

i had my car broken into and my really nice golf clubs stolen. i know they are just golf clubs but they were MY golf clubs that i worked hard for. i didn't have any money to buy another set so now i'm going on a year now without being able to play golf. so now i'm fucked and some asshole got a free set of clubs. it's bullshit.

i love boondock saints and the punisher because they represent what everyone wants to do, which is deliver justice and punhishment to those that deserve it. those two illegal aliens deserved to get shot in the back and that guy deserved 3 knees to face and a hospital visit.

[role model]

I forgot all about this thread.
My answer is simple and I can't believe more don't agree with me.

You cannot shoot someone in the back as there runnung away.
And in Horns case, it wasn't even his own property he was defending it was his neighbors.

He is guilty of murder in my opinion.

[perseverance]

RM, you are correct, it was not his property. just walking out and shooting someon in the back is definately not the way to do it. he should've at least given them a warning, shot out the tires, shot out their knees, something other than killing. i imagine if a man with a shotgun tells you to freeze then they would probably listen, unless of course they didn't speak english which was probably the case. but either way, i'd rather them be dead than have gotten away and robbed someone else

[Lizard King]

So if he shot them in the legs so they couldn't run away, was he justified then? If your robbing someone's house you sort of need to assume some sort of risk and getting shot by a pissed off neighbor is one of them. My neighbor is a retired detective and if someone was robbing my house and my 2 100+ pound American Bulldogs didn't tear the shit out of them then I hope my neighbor would get off his ass and do something, hopefully before they are running away with my shit and he has to shoot them in the back.
He stayed on the phone too long with 911 and could have got them in the front instead of the back

[role model]

Originally Posted by Lizard King

He stayed on the phone too long with 911 and could have got them in the front instead of the back

Your right,

If he shot them in the front he'd a been better off legally, cuz they would have been coming toward him.

No matter what, in this case, he's fried, because the dispatcher told him a half dozen times "Don't do that," "Don't go over there," "Stay in the house," and " "Don't go outside, stay on th phone."

[dennis]

Jmills....were you justified ? Legally probably not..remember what excesive force means ? Although I might have done the same thing in your shoes.The minute the guy pulls the weapon and threatens you ..you have the right to reasonably defend yourself I would think.So what if you accidentally broke a few of his bones during the process? The right thing to do would have been choked the guy down...then wait for authorities to handle it.You did a good thing getting that bum off the street.
Role..I do agree with what you are saying bro..he should not have shot them in the back.I will raise the point again about the robbers being illegal imigrants ..they should not have even been here in the first place !

[jmills]

That situation has been on my mind for over a year...oddly enough it felt kind of good to talk about it. And I guess I know that I was not justified (which is why it still bothers me), but wanted to use that situation for an example of how your thinking can become skewed when faced with (what you interpret as) a life threatening situation.

I could have stepped aside or ran / I had more insurance on the bike than i was worth = he could have stayed in the house / it wasn't his stuff...that is rational thought. But when the lizard part of your brain takes over, rational thought sometimes takes a nap. So there was no rational reason to do what either of us did...but I'm just going to throw this out there again: I don't agree with vigilantism, but if you get caught doing some dumb shit like that then (again) you are playing with your life and health and you just might lose... those guys lost, game over.

I don't think this case is simple at all. We don't know a thing about any prior issues in that neighborhood, we don't kow much about the guys mental state, we don't know if he had been threatened by these guys or if they were part of a group of people that he had been threatened by....I could go on and on...a good defense lawyer actually has quite a bit of material to explore, and this DID happen in Texas. The "cowboy culture" is alive and well there and that is not all bad IMHO. I think he has a "shot" at getting away with it....I hope he does, maybe that would be a warning to others who might consider the same thing. And lets not kid ourselves, burglary is a serious crime and not just about property...many innocent people have been killed or seriously harmed because they surprised a burgler, prisons are full of convicted killers with very minor prior offenses who surprised their victims in just this way.

I'm going to be following the trial as best i can...I think the comment about them being shot in the back but "not at the same angle" is also very interesting.

I appreciate the comments supporting what I did, like I said I think it helped me to talk about it like this...but I still feel like shit about it. I keep thinking about how this guy might have had a messed up childhood, maybe he never caught a break, etc etc...am i just a pussy with a bad temper, or am I a basically compassionate person who is haunted by a momentary loss of self control? I honestly don't know...

[role model]

Originally Posted by dennis

Role..I do agree with what you are saying bro..he should not have shot them in the back.I will raise the point again about the robbers being illegal imigrants ..they should not have even been here in the first place !

I don't think that matters much, because even if they were legal they shouldn't have been in my house stealing in the 1st place.

[Bigkarch]

per studies shooting im the back dont mean shit........many legal precendents with that...

[perseverance]

Originally Posted by jmills

I keep thinking about how this guy might have had a messed up childhood, maybe he never caught a break, etc etc...am i just a pussy with a bad temper, or am I a basically compassionate person who is haunted by a momentary loss of self control? I honestly don't know...

dude don't make excuses for what the guy did to you.