Adrenal Fatigue -- PMGamer

[jinxie1]

PMGamer, you suggested that I am in stage 5 ASI. I'm not sure this is accurate given my salivary DHEA. (My data is at the end of this post.) That said, my serum DHEAs is at the bottom of the range. Also, while my overall salivary cortisol is in the bottom of the normal range, according to my serum test, my ACTH is pushing the limits to produce cortisol, suggestive of greater stress than the salivary test may reveal. Then again, my AM plasma cortisol is pretty close to ideal; however, I understand getting stabbed with the needle can raise cortisol levels, just as it raises catecholamines.

I believe my greatest problem is the fact that my diurnal variation is upside down -- lowest in the morning, highest at night. My endo said that he was reluctant to treat it given the overall numbers, and he suggested that Synthroid may help reset my system. This was lost on me. In any event, I will be seeing a male horomone specialist late next week, and I have confidence that he will be better suited to address this issue. Notwithstanding, I look forward to hearing the opinions of you and others.

Thanks a million for your last response to my other thread. It was very helpful, particularly all of the links you provided. I wish you the best in health.

j

The salient data is as follows:

Adrenal Stress Test (Salivary):

Early Morning Cortisol 5 (depressed)
Mid-day Cortisol 6 (low normal)
Afternoon Cortisol 6 (low normal)
Midnight Corisol 8 (highly elevated)
DHEA 6 (normal)

Serum Tests:

ACTH: 47 (high end of range)
Cortisol, A.M. 19.3 (normal)
DHEAs 146 (low end of range)

[pmgamer18]

Well there is something going on there with your Cortisol levels Dr.'s told me for yrs my levels were low normal. I would not be here today if I did not start on Cortef for my Adrenals yet in my case it's my pituitary. Anyway low normal levels in the morning are a bad thing and ACTH being high tells us that you brain is asking for more cortisol and your adrenals can't make it. Adding Synthroid is only stress your adrenals even more. In the Dr.'s desk book it states to test cortisol before putting one on Thyroid meds because you can kill someone doing this if there cortisol levels are to low.

I hope your new Dr. works out better. I can stand Endo's in my life time I have never seen such dum ass's ever.

Originally Posted by jinxie1

PMGamer, you suggested that I am in stage 5 ASI. I'm not sure this is accurate given my salivary DHEA. (My data is at the end of this post.) That said, my serum DHEAs is at the bottom of the range. Also, while my overall salivary cortisol is in the bottom of the normal range, according to my serum test, my ACTH is pushing the limits to produce cortisol, suggestive of greater stress than the salivary test may reveal. Then again, my AM plasma cortisol is pretty close to ideal; however, I understand getting stabbed with the needle can raise cortisol levels, just as it raises catecholamines.

I believe my greatest problem is the fact that my diurnal variation is upside down -- lowest in the morning, highest at night. My endo said that he was reluctant to treat it given the overall numbers, and he suggested that Synthroid may help reset my system. This was lost on me. In any event, I will be seeing a male horomone specialist late next week, and I have confidence that he will be better suited to address this issue. Notwithstanding, I look forward to hearing the opinions of you and others.

Thanks a million for your last response to my other thread. It was very helpful, particularly all of the links you provided. I wish you the best in health.

j

The salient data is as follows:

Adrenal Stress Test (Salivary):

Early Morning Cortisol 5 (depressed)
Mid-day Cortisol 6 (low normal)
Afternoon Cortisol 6 (low normal)
Midnight Corisol 8 (highly elevated)
DHEA 6 (normal)

Serum Tests:

ACTH: 47 (high end of range)
Cortisol, A.M. 19.3 (normal)
DHEAs 146 (low end of range)

[jinxie1]

Pmgamer, I really love your conviction to the cause, and your healthy skepticism. All for good reason. And I really appreciate your good feedback.

While my endo is not a male hormone specialist (which is why I am seeing someone else), he is actually highly regarded and I think he is competent. He tested my morning plasma cortisol before putting me on Synthroid. As noted, my morning plasma cortisol is close to ideal. However, my morning salivary cortisol is in the gutter. I dont understand the discrepancy. My understanding is that salivary cortisol is the best for assessing rhythm, while the plasma is more accurant for assessing levels. In other words, the salivary is a good relative measure. I am just speaking from what I've read.

I am not particularly concerned about the Synthroid killing me. It's actually helping me some, in terms of my energy level. BUT, this is not to suggest that I do not need to treat the adrenals -- I'm pretty sure I do. And, as I noted, I think I need to be taking Cytomel, or Armour in lieu of the Synthroid, for my hypothyroid.

Best,
j

[pmgamer18]

A blood cortisol test only shows what is going on in your blood at the time it was taken and it is not Free Cortisol when you test in Saliva it's Free. I was not saying your Dr. is killing you I was saying what the Desk book says. Synthroid is not good for anyone I have read one horror story after the other I could bumbard with links but don't have the time. You need armour this is the best for most people and has been out for many yrs. My wife was on Synthroid for 15yrs seeing one Endo after the other all they would say is your labs are in the normal range her take this Prozac and lose weight. WTF is with that lose weight everyone knows if your hypo you can't lose weight. When I found out I have a pituitary problem and started looking into Thyroid problems I was shocked at what people said about Syn.
I got my wife to see Dr. that uses Armour and now she is fine.
Here read this 2 links.
Stop The Thyroid Madness » Index Page
Gail’s Thyroid Tips
You can go to About.com and get an ear full on Syn.

Originally Posted by jinxie1

Pmgamer, I really love your conviction to the cause, and your healthy skepticism. All for good reason. And I really appreciate your good feedback.

While my endo is not a male hormone specialist (which is why I am seeing someone else), he is actually highly regarded and I think he is competent. He tested my morning plasma cortisol before putting me on Synthroid. As noted, my morning plasma cortisol is close to ideal. However, my morning salivary cortisol is in the gutter. I dont understand the discrepancy. My understanding is that salivary cortisol is the best for assessing rhythm, while the plasma is more accurant for assessing levels. In other words, the salivary is a good relative measure. I am just speaking from what I've read.

I am not particularly concerned about the Synthroid killing me. It's actually helping me some, in terms of my energy level. BUT, this is not to suggest that I do not need to treat the adrenals -- I'm pretty sure I do. And, as I noted, I think I need to be taking Cytomel, or Armour in lieu of the Synthroid, for my hypothyroid.

Best,
j

[jinxie1]

Thanks for the head check, PM: I had forgotten about the fact that plasma cortisol is total cortisol, not free cortisol. I knew that, but lost sight of it.

I agree that I need Cytomel or Armour given my conversion issues. I suspect that my doctor will place me on one or the other, and likely the latter.

As for losing weight, I hear you, but I am actually thin, and have lost 25 lbs in the last 1.5 years. Much of that wait loss was muscle wasting, as a consequence of my testosterone drop, and the consequential inability to train because I lacked the enegy and became far too depleted and sore.

Thanks much, buddy,
j

[pmgamer18]

Now you need to stop thinking about working out until you know for sure your adrenals are in good shape. Read the Sticky "Adrenal Thread" there is a lot if input from Dr. Marianco, Dr. John aka SWALE and others. He says some men that over do working out ware down there adrenals and need to stop until the get better. The muscles will always come back I am back in the gym worked out today 90 min.'s on machines. I am 63 and still am able to put the muscle back on.

[beez721]

Originally Posted by pmgamer18

Now you need to stop thinking about working out until you know for sure your adrenals are in good shape. Read the Sticky "Adrenal Thread" there is a lot if input from Dr. Marianco, Dr. John aka SWALE and others. He says some men that over do working out ware down there adrenals and need to stop until the get better. The muscles will always come back I am back in the gym worked out today 90 min.'s on machines. I am 63 and still am able to put the muscle back on.

I think maybe I should take note of this. my workouts have been absolutely dreadful. Im now pathetically down to 185 lbs for 10 reps in the squat and 185 for 5 reps in the bench press. I used to be able to lift this when I was 16 yrs old and almost double this 10 yrs ago. its so mind boggling.the problem is I just seem to feel worse mentally when Im not working out,,,so its hard for me to stop. I ordered a saliva test and it should be here within a week. Im pretty sure my adrenals are toast and my thyroid appears to be low from the freet4 blood test I did a few weeks ago. I just hope armour and hc can give me some strength and vigor back. Im sick of feeling like a tired weakling at 38 yrs old

[jinxie1]

I hear you both of you. I've been a fitness freak since 14. But it got to the point where it was doing nothing for my head, and it would cause me to ache for days -- not a good ache. I gave it up entirely a few months ago. Sadly, I cant even do cardio, as it causes my heart to race harder than it should. A light jog and I am at 170 BPM. It's probably adrenal insufficiency, combined with autonomic issues. I understand that AI can cause there issues -- e.g., labile pulse and BP. My hammies hurt all the time, like I've been doing heavy leg curls. I understand this is relatively common when the T gets low. I suppose it's because it's a muscle that gets worked whenever I walk, and they arent recovering as they should. I'm 37! Thankfully, I've worked out for so long that I still look athletic, even if no longer buff. But for that, I'd be a bag of bones right now. Oh the pain . . . But it could be worse.

Take care fellas.

[pmgamer18]

I am just now going back to the gym and working out. I am taking it slow and not killing my self I just don't care at my age what I look like I just want to be healthy.