Dopamine

[marianco]

I sometimes have difficulty in formulating very specific questions, but here's one :

In anyone complaining of low sex drive, is it indisputable that that individual has a dopamine deficiency, whatever the underlying cause ? I mean, whether it is from low Testosterone, low cortisol, low thyroid etc..

Clearly, low dopamine can have many origins, sometimes taking the form of low T, while low cortisol is also likely, I read it causes increased Norepi. which in turn causes the brain to decrease DA.

I take it that's cause Norepi. is synthesized from DA, thus if there's more stress it requires more conversion of DA to Norepi. leaving less DA to do perform others functions.

Lately, I've focused on dopamine, not because I think it's doing it's job alone, but because I want to make sure I know what it does as a neurotransmitters. But of course like you so often say, the neurotransmitter, immune, and hormone form a 3-dimensional web, which turns out to be one large network.

When one has low sex drive one can have low or normal or high dopamine levels. Which situation may be present depends on each individual.

Low sex drive most commonly involves a group of neurotransmitter, hormone, and cytokine problems - not a single isolated problem.

Commonly, I find thyroid and adrenal problems as causes of low sex drive. Next, are low testosterone levels. However, quite a a number of times, in men who complain about low sex drive, their testosterone levels turned out to be sky high - in the 800-1000 without TRT.

Dopamine itself is extremely difficult to manipulate in isolation from other chemical messengers. The treatments which affect dopamine always invariably have significant side effects (e.g. amphetamines which can increase dopamine through reuptake inhibition, can eventually cause adrenal fatigue from also increasing norepinephrine. The adrenal fatigue may eventually result in lowering dopamine production).

By improving the other systems which are easier to manipulate without too many bad side effects and interactions - e.g. testosterone, estrogens, thyroid, DHEA and other adrenal hormones, etc. - then dopamine can itself improve given the linkage in function. In a way, then, dopamine abnormalities can be considered often as a marker of problems in other systems. Improvements in those systems can be expressed as an improvement in dopamine levels.

In my experience, If we're lucky, then a single intervention - such as adding testosterone - will solve their problem. However, I do often get the more complex, treatment resistant patients, referred from neuroendocrinologists or other hormone specialists, when conventional treatment is not working.

More often, than not, I find it necessary to do a complex treatment addressing as many imbalances as I can find in order to improve a person's ability to function - tuning up a person's ability to function - so to speak. This may involve neurotransmitter interventions (e.g. psychiatric medications), hormones, and/or nutritional interventions, customized to what the patient needs.

The more things a person takes, the more complex the treatment becomes. Even with nutrients, this is the case.

For example, with Vitamin C, I have to think about the possibility of developing a copper deficiency if too high a dose of Vitamin C is used. Zinc and copper are linked. Various minerals and Vitamins are linked in function. Vitamin B12 itself can have toxicity at too high a dose. It also has interactions with some minerals and other nutrients.

[The_Skeptic]

Originally Posted by marianco

When one has low sex drive one can have low or normal or high dopamine levels. Which situation may be present depends on each individual.

Low sex drive most commonly involves a group of neurotransmitter, hormone, and cytokine problems - not a single isolated problem.

Commonly, I find thyroid and adrenal problems as causes of low sex drive. Next, are low testosterone levels. However, quite a a number of times, in men who complain about low sex drive, their testosterone levels turned out to be sky high - in the 800-1000 without TRT.

Dopamine itself is extremely difficult to manipulate in isolation from other chemical messengers. The treatments which affect dopamine always invariably have significant side effects (e.g. amphetamines which can increase dopamine through reuptake inhibition, can eventually cause adrenal fatigue from also increasing norepinephrine. The adrenal fatigue may eventually result in lowering dopamine production).

By improving the other systems which are easier to manipulate without too many bad side effects and interactions - e.g. testosterone, estrogens, thyroid, DHEA and other adrenal hormones, etc. - then dopamine can itself improve given the linkage in function. In a way, then, dopamine abnormalities can be considered often as a marker of problems in other systems. Improvements in those systems can be expressed as an improvement in dopamine levels.

In my experience, If we're lucky, then a single intervention - such as adding testosterone - will solve their problem. However, I do often get the more complex, treatment resistant patients, referred from neuroendocrinologists or other hormone specialists, when conventional treatment is not working.

More often, than not, I find it necessary to do a complex treatment addressing as many imbalances as I can find in order to improve a person's ability to function - tuning up a person's ability to function - so to speak. This may involve neurotransmitter interventions (e.g. psychiatric medications), hormones, and/or nutritional interventions, customized to what the patient needs.

The more things a person takes, the more complex the treatment becomes. Even with nutrients, this is the case.

For example, with Vitamin C, I have to think about the possibility of developing a copper deficiency if too high a dose of Vitamin C is used. Zinc and copper are linked. Various minerals and Vitamins are linked in function. Vitamin B12 itself can have toxicity at too high a dose. It also has interactions with some minerals and other nutrients.

Please explain more about Vitamin B12 toxicity. Everything I've read says that it is not toxic. I currently take B12 injections, so it's important that I know.

[DrmChld]

Originally Posted by The_Skeptic

Please explain more about Vitamin B12 toxicity. Everything I've read says that it is not toxic. I currently take B12 injections, so it's important that I know.

I'm curious about this also. I thought B vitamins were water soluable and whatever our body didn't need we would just piss it out.

[chip douglas]

Thanks for posting it on my behalf, as it totally slipped my mind to do so, although it's what I intended to do.

Thank you for the very good and to the point reply. I know I've said it many times, but this place can count itself so very lucky to have you here Marianco. Not every forum has medical doctors as part of their usual posters, and even less forums have highly competent M.D.'s on board.

I'm also including Dr. John Crisler in the above statement.

[gregxy]

I have wondered about the effects of excess copper. The enzyme that converts
dopamine to norephinephrine uses copper. Copper plumbing is now in
wide spread use and most cropland is supposed to be zinc deficient due to
over farming.

Many water companies now use cholramine instead of chlorine maybe chloramine
disolves more copper from the pipes.

[chip douglas]

Originally Posted by marianco

When one has low sex drive one can have low or normal or high dopamine levels. Which situation may be present depends on each individual.

Low sex drive most commonly involves a group of neurotransmitter, hormone, and cytokine problems - not a single isolated problem.

Commonly, I find thyroid and adrenal problems as causes of low sex drive. Next, are low testosterone levels. However, quite a a number of times, in men who complain about low sex drive, their testosterone levels turned out to be sky high - in the 800-1000 without TRT.

Dopamine itself is extremely difficult to manipulate in isolation from other chemical messengers. The treatments which affect dopamine always invariably have significant side effects (e.g. amphetamines which can increase dopamine through reuptake inhibition, can eventually cause adrenal fatigue from also increasing norepinephrine. The adrenal fatigue may eventually result in lowering dopamine production).


By improving the other systems which are easier to manipulate without too many bad side effects and interactions - e.g. testosterone, estrogens, thyroid, DHEA and other adrenal hormones, etc. - then dopamine can itself improve given the linkage in function. In a way, then, dopamine abnormalities can be considered often as a marker of problems in other systems. Improvements in those systems can be expressed as an improvement in dopamine levels.


In my experience, If we're lucky, then a single intervention - such as adding testosterone - will solve their problem. However, I do often get the more complex, treatment resistant patients, referred from neuroendocrinologists or other hormone specialists, when conventional treatment is not working.

More often, than not, I find it necessary to do a complex treatment addressing as many imbalances as I can find in order to improve a person's ability to function - tuning up a person's ability to function - so to speak. This may involve neurotransmitter interventions (e.g. psychiatric medications), hormones, and/or nutritional interventions, customized to what the patient needs.

The more things a person takes, the more complex the treatment becomes. Even with nutrients, this is the case.

For example, with Vitamin C, I have to think about the possibility of developing a copper deficiency if too high a dose of Vitamin C is used. Zinc and copper are linked. Various minerals and Vitamins are linked in function. Vitamin B12 itself can have toxicity at too high a dose. It also has interactions with some minerals and other nutrients.

Since Testosterone can elevate DA, the fact that those men have sky high T levels, does it mean their DA is then either normal or high ? In those with naturally high T, I guess their sex drive issue is not with adrenal fatigue, as you say that Testosterone prevents the adrenals from going into overdrive.



Selegeline hydrochloride being a selective MAO-B inhibitor < 10 mg/day--at least that's what is said in the literature (however I recall your writing that in some it may inhibit MAO-A at such low dose, and that some side effects listed as rare and mild, can in some patients be acute, even though rare still). Does Deprenyl significantly increase Norepi. ? I seem to recall in addition to being a selective MAO-B inhibitor, that is also is a sympatomimetic.

Originally Posted by marianco

By improving the other systems which are easier to manipulate without too many bad side effects and interactions - e.g. testosterone, estrogens, thyroid, DHEA and other adrenal hormones, etc. - then dopamine can itself improve given the linkage in function. In a way, then, dopamine abnormalities can be considered often as a marker of problems in other systems. Improvements in those systems can be expressed as an improvement in dopamine levels.

Ok, that's exactly what I wanted to know about DA in relation to other systems-- thanks.

[marianco]

Originally Posted by DrmChld

I'm curious about this also. I thought B vitamins were water soluable and whatever our body didn't need we would just piss it out.

The B Vitamins are water soluble.

But not all of them are "just pissed out".

Vitamin B12 is one of them. Vitamin B12 is stored in the liver. Usually a person in good health can store about 10 or more years worth of B12 in the liver.

Generally, B12 has very low toxicity. There isn't a upper limit noted for it. It is a very important vitamin involved in many processes in the body.

However under relatively rare circumstances, an excess can cause problems.

This may include:
1. spasms of the arteries - contributing to chest pain or mild-stroke-like symptoms - primarily with injected B12
2. rapid heartbeat
3. anxiety
4. hypokalemia
5. skin problems - itching, rash, urticaria, rosacea
6. increased return of coronary artery blockage in patients after angioplasty with stents receiving a combination of folic acid, B6, and B12.
7. diarrhea
8. peripheral vascular thrombosis
9. hiding the presence of polycythemia vera
10. gout
11. hiding the presence of folic acid deficiency
12. rapid optic nerve atrophy in patients with Leber's diease
13. etc.

Admittedly, these are fairly rare when taking B12. But when confronted with symptoms and a person is taking B12, it should be taken into account.

[chip douglas]

This is yet another case showing the one should aim for balance. A retired researcher endocrinology friend of mine once told me that one of the secrets to health is balance. Meaning that one should not ingest nutrients in excess of what is needed and so on and so forth.

The more the years go by, the wiser I get, and the more sense I see in this.

It also means that when I'm really really wise, death won't be far ahead Despite my joking about this, it isn't that funny when we think about it. Of course I can enjoy wisdom before I get to the end of my life........we live and learn.

Life is some experience, I think all on here will agree.

[keithdolby]

Originally Posted by marianco

The B Vitamins are water soluble.

But not all of them are "just pissed out".

Vitamin B12 is one of them. Vitamin B12 is stored in the liver. Usually a person in good health can store about 10 or more years worth of B12 in the liver.

Generally, B12 has very low toxicity. There isn't a upper limit noted for it. It is a very important vitamin involved in many processes in the body.

However under relatively rare circumstances, an excess can cause problems.

This may include:
1. spasms of the arteries - contributing to chest pain or mild-stroke-like symptoms - primarily with injected B12
2. rapid heartbeat
3. anxiety
4. hypokalemia
5. skin problems - itching, rash, urticaria, rosacea
6. increased return of coronary artery blockage in patients after angioplasty with stents receiving a combination of folic acid, B6, and B12.
7. diarrhea
8. peripheral vascular thrombosis
9. hiding the presence of polycythemia vera
10. gout
11. hiding the presence of folic acid deficiency
12. rapid optic nerve atrophy in patients with Leber's diease
13. etc.

Admittedly, these are fairly rare when taking B12. But when confronted with symptoms and a person is taking B12, it should be taken into account.

I just started on methylb12. I am taking 2.5mg eod subq just underneath the skin. This seems like a pretty high dose, so should I watch out for some of these side effects. Thanks