HCG Monotherapy for Secondary

[James23]

I've been secondary hypogonadal since I was 16 or younger, and started HRT around age 21. TRT has never produced even a SINGLE benefit for me. It only accelerated developing MBP and grew me some chest hair (finally.) Primary complains are inability to gain mass and non-existent/low libido. This is still the case while my total T is around 600ng/dl and my free T is slightly above the top of the range. My SHBG is very low.

Since I have WORKING testicles, why hasn't anyone (even Dr. Crisler (he dosesn't really believe in it, right?) prescribed HCG monotherapy? What am I missing? Excess estrogen is a big problem for me even with just T alone -- so I have to I have to take Arimidex.

So -- would I benefit from HCG monothearpy? Why isn't it used more often? Has anyone here had success with it?

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by James23

I've been secondary hypogonadal since I was 16 or younger, and started HRT around age 21. TRT has never produced even a SINGLE benefit for me. It only accelerated developing MBP and grew me some chest hair (finally.) Primary complains are inability to gain mass and non-existent/low libido. This is still the case while my total T is around 600ng/dl and my free T is slightly above the top of the range. My SHBG is very low.

Since I have WORKING testicles, why hasn't anyone (even Dr. Crisler (he dosesn't really believe in it, right?) prescribed HCG monotherapy? What am I missing? Excess estrogen is a big problem for me even with just T alone -- so I have to I have to take Arimidex.

So -- would I benefit from HCG monothearpy? Why isn't it used more often? Has anyone here had success with it?

If your secondary did you get an MRI on your Pituitary and have other hormones tested. I have has low t for 22 yrs and told I am primary. Last yr. I got my Dr. to add HCG and my levels doubled so now I am told I am Hypopituitary and after reading here and other sites. I have had more testing done over and above Total and Free T with Estradiol. I have found that I am low on IGF-1, DHEA, Thyroid, Cortisol and Glucose. When I do a HCG shot I feel real good for about 2 hrs. I just started on Isocort to bring up my Cortisol levels and find it makes me feel good for 5 hrs like the HCG shot. 1cc said the HCG shot must be bring up the cortisol level and this is why the shot makes me feel so good. I am going to ask my Dr. the next time I see him If I can drop the T shots and just do HCG. I feel if your secondary and your Dr. will not give it to you then you have a bad Dr. and you need to find a better one and get more testing.

[farmerjohn]

Are you 23 now as your name suggests? Try seeing Dr. Shippen. (610-777-7896) He is giving HCG monotherapy to young patients. I am one of his patients and he told me for all we know the testicles produce some other hormone we know nothing about yet that effects libido. I think you are absolutely right to question this.

[Ruper]

Have you tried injections + HCG. 60mg Tcype by itself seems low. You say with T levels 'even at 600'. What about 1200, or above the normal range? Same deal with worse sides? If you feel like shit, I wouln't worry about being 'in range' to start with apart from the side effects.

Low SHGB - possibly an indication of other problems, since I don’t think anyone really understands exactly what regulated this. It seems to be a red flag for unusual cases, where something else is drastically wrong. Lot's of questions about low SHGB on this board, not many concrete answers.

Is there anything to suggest a benefit of HCG only over test + HCG? Or is it just a question of wanting to stimulate the testes enough to produce the 'other benefits', which I agree seem to be widely recognized.

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by Ruper

Have you tried injections + HCG. 60mg Tcype by itself seems low. You say with T levels 'even at 600'. What about 1200, or above the normal range? Same deal with worse sides? If you feel like shit, I wouln't worry about being 'in range' to start with apart from the side effects.

Low SHGB - possibly an indication of other problems, since I don’t think anyone really understands exactly what regulated this. It seems to be a red flag for unusual cases, where something else is drastically wrong. Lot's of questions about low SHGB on this board, not many concrete answers.

Is there anything to suggest a benefit of HCG only over test + HCG? Or is it just a question of wanting to stimulate the testes enough to produce the 'other benefits', which I agree seem to be widely recognized.

I feel so good after a HCG shot that I am going to ask my Dr. if I can drop the T shots and do HCG everyday.

[eeso]

I'm 23. I'd say I feel better on HCG only.

I was on 125mg enanthate + HCG every week for about a year. Hair started falling out pretty bad. Proscar didn't stop it either.

Anyway, switched to 250iu HCG every other day a couple of months ago, and I'd say I feel a lot better. Nuts are good, hair stopped falling out. Feel cleaner - I'm not on half a dozen chemicals n crap anymore.

But doing a recovery program as of today.

[novice]

eeso, how long were you on TRT? Did you get tired or have any other symptoms when getting off the ethanate? I have not had a shot in about 12 days, and been using 200iu of HCG daily. But I have been pretty tired, and normally have alot of energy. I have been using HCG since starting TRT so I would think that would help, but I have been on for about 1year.

[eeso]

I was on TRT for 1.5 years, taking 125mg test a week, and 250iu hcg a week.

I tried stopping both hcg and testosterone without any pct. Felt fine for about a month - there was even a 1-2week stage where my labido was raging out of control, but then it all died again and i started feeling very depressed, so i went back on test+hcg.

Then after a while i dropped the testosterone and just took 300iu HCG eod. Felt fine on it. Now on 250iu eod and still fine. Went about 2 months on HCG only. It took a couple of weeks after going to just HCG for my nuts to really respond well I think.

I think using HCG when on testosterone as well isn't that great because it's like hitting the brake and the accelarator at the same time - the HCG is telling your nuts to spark up, but the exogenous test is telling everything to stop.

But i started my recovery protocol today, so yeah, hopefully in 7 weeks time I won't need anymore drugs at all.

[Ruper]

Originally Posted by pmgamer18

I feel so good after a HCG shot that I am going to ask my Dr. if I can drop the T shots and do HCG everyday.

I don't get this good feeling, at least not yet. In fact the weeks I have gone without HCG due to traveling I feel fine, if not better. HGC, particularly Novarel just seem to make the TRT sides worse. In particular, since I switched from APP to Novarel my wife noticed an increase in body hair growth and I get nipple sensitivity after a couple of hours.

Doing 150-200IU 3x/week. I can't imagine doing enough to keep my T levels high.

[James23]

pmgamer - I did get a pituitary MRI, but they did not see anything abnormal. I know I am secondary, because the first time I was tested, I had low total T, low SHBG, and average free T (because of low SHBG.)

rupert - i have tried HCG + T, but since SBGH is so low -- the 60mg of T by itself shoots my free T pretty high over the normal range, while my normal T stays around 600ng/dl. i have tried supraphysiological levels around the 1200 range.. I can't remember exactly -- but when I was around 1200ng/dl, my free T was QUADRUPLE the highest normal value. The 1200ng/dl levels were the result of about 150mg T and 500iu of HCG 2x/wk..

I think the benefit of HCG would be that I might have a chance of getting my testes to produce T on their own if I can get my body used to higher levels. It is also a much cheaper approach, and I won't have to rip little holes in my glutes to inject 52 pockets of oil per year. And yes, I would like to feel the other benefits of T being produced by my testicles like it is supposed to be.

I have to takte T, Arimidex, and progesterone. I used to take HCG, too. How ridiculous would I look going to a GP for Viagra and explaining that I'm on four different hormones, two of which are for 'off label' usage. It sounds just as ridiculous to me, too. I need to get to the root of the problem -- which is that my testicles aren't producing T.

I'm pretty convinced now that Dr. John is just too busy for individuals, and just tapers you according to his current beliefs and protocols -- not your individual situaton. I don't know why you'd start a 21 year old (as I was at the time) on exogenous T when there is a possiblity of his testicles being perfectly fine. Regardless of what they've done for others, his protocols have certainly done me more damage than good.

eeso - What is your recovery protocol?

[farmerjohn]

I think secondary is really defined as having low T and normal to low LH. LH and FSH should be high if T is low otherwise you are secondary.

[James23]

farmerjohn,

You're right -- I wasn't clear about why I know I'm secondary. The first endocrinologist that I saw decided that I was "fine" because my LH was normal, and my free T was also normal. Yet, both total T and SHBG were low. That is to say, my pituitary was not asking my testes for more testosterone by sending extra LH. It was just acting as if nothing was wrong.

So, yeah, I forgot to mention the normal LH part.

Also, when I was at 1200ng/dl there were no detectable amounts of LH or FSH in my system!

[farmerjohn]

well you certainly are a candidate for HCG only treatment and you should go for it. I take it subQ and its painless to inject for the most part.

This may have been covered already but if not, make sure you check yourself for hemochrmoatosis, Vit D deficiency, and TSH for hypothyroidism. All can cause secondary. Hemochromatosis is the most common genetic disease and although does not alway effect the pituitary it can and if you don't know you have it, its bad. If you do, it can be treated.

[eeso]

james23: see the other thread started by me, "my trt recovery log" or whatever i called it...

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by James23

pmgamer - I did get a pituitary MRI, but they did not see anything abnormal. I know I am secondary, because the first time I was tested, I had low total T, low SHBG, and average free T (because of low SHBG.)

rupert - i have tried HCG + T, but since SBGH is so low -- the 60mg of T by itself shoots my free T pretty high over the normal range, while my normal T stays around 600ng/dl. i have tried supraphysiological levels around the 1200 range.. I can't remember exactly -- but when I was around 1200ng/dl, my free T was QUADRUPLE the highest normal value. The 1200ng/dl levels were the result of about 150mg T and 500iu of HCG 2x/wk..

I think the benefit of HCG would be that I might have a chance of getting my testes to produce T on their own if I can get my body used to higher levels. It is also a much cheaper approach, and I won't have to rip little holes in my glutes to inject 52 pockets of oil per year. And yes, I would like to feel the other benefits of T being produced by my testicles like it is supposed to be.

I have to takte T, Arimidex, and progesterone. I used to take HCG, too. How ridiculous would I look going to a GP for Viagra and explaining that I'm on four different hormones, two of which are for 'off label' usage. It sounds just as ridiculous to me, too. I need to get to the root of the problem -- which is that my testicles aren't producing T.

I'm pretty convinced now that Dr. John is just too busy for individuals, and just tapers you according to his current beliefs and protocols -- not your individual situaton. I don't know why you'd start a 21 year old (as I was at the time) on exogenous T when there is a possiblity of his testicles being perfectly fine. Regardless of what they've done for others, his protocols have certainly done me more damage than good.

eeso - What is your recovery protocol?

Yes I had an MRI last yr. and they could not find anything yet I was told I am Primary for yrs. But last yr I add HCG and my levels doubled. I had the feel good feeling from the first shot of HCG and we now know the because of my low cortisol levels the HCG was bring it up to make me feel good. I am now doing Isocort and the same feeling but 80% stronger. I feel one is seconday when they have low T and low LH an Low FSH. Looking back at my first test 22 yrs ago my total T was 120 and my LH and FSH were low mid range. So that is how they missed it.