Can HCG Restart the H/P Axis To Become Self-sufficient Again?

[DavidZ]

When I was first diagnosed with secondary hypogonadism in 1999, I searched the Internet and other sources to learn more about this condition. One of the key questions in my mind was – Can HCG restart the hypothalamus/pituitary axis to become self-sufficient again?

My repeated inquiries on various Internet HRT discussion groups yielded no significant response to this question. No poster since then has claimed, or even hinted, that HCG restarted their hypothalamus/pituitary axis so that they no longer need HCG (or something else) to produce normal levels of T on their own. The only exceptions are stories of steroid users who used HCG to restart their T production after steroids suppressed their h/p axis. But absolutely no stories of remission from idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism surfaced.

My HCG stimulation test in February 2000 yielded a strong response. After my initial HCG stimulation test, I moved to 1,000 IU per week (500 IU on Mon & Thurs). I have recorded the dates and amounts of every HCG shot I have taken. The per shot dosage pattern is as follows:

2/2000 500 IU
5/2000 400 IU (started taking Selegiline at 2.5 mg/night)
2/2001 380 IU
3/2001 360 IU
5/2001 340 IU (started taking Indolplex/DIM)
8/2001 330 IU
6/2002 310 IU
2/2003 280 IU (decreased Selegiline to 1.9 mg/night)
4/2003 240 IU (decreased Selegiline to 1.5 mg/night)
6/2003 220 IU (decreased Selegiline to 1.3 mg/night)
8/2003 210 IU (decreased Selegiline to 1.2 mg/night)
1/2004 205 IU (decreased Selegiline to 1.0 mg/night)
6/2004 205 IU (decreased Selegiline to 0.6 mg/night)
3/2005 205 IU (decreased Selegiline to 0.5 mg/night)

So, right now, I'm taking 410 IU of HCG per week (205 IU on Mon & Thurs), 0.5 mg of Selegiline per night and about one quarter of a 120 mg Indolplex/DIM tablet per day. That's it. I take no other medications of any kind. The only other supplements I take are one Centrum Silver, and 15/1 mg of Zinc Picolinate/Copper. With this protocol my T, Free T, and E2 consistently stay in the upper normal range.

While I can't yet conclude that HCG can restart the h/p axis to become self-sufficient again, it does appear that I'm heading in that direction. I should also say that I follow a strict program of diet/nutrition and exercise to generally promote my health.

Does HCG act to resuscitate a quiescent h/p axis? If not, then why does the amount of HCG required to get my T into the upper normal range continue to decline over time?

[mxim]

first off, great post. i am in a similar position and have been hypogonadal since 1996. i have heard stories where hcg seems to "jump start the hpta axis.how this works is anyones guess but a few endocrinologists have claimed this to be true is certain cases. it is very interesting to see your T levels increase while you decrease your hcg dosgae. perhaps this is an indication that your ledigs cells are becoming more responsive to lh. however,the problem with secondary hypogonadism stems from weak signals delivered from the pituitary which need to be adjusted. following anabolic steroid use,the body seems to "reset itself" to a lower level of gonadatrpoin levels;this is what needs to be fixed. clomid therapy helps by restarting the whole axis whereas hcg only takes care of the tail end of things(so to speak).what you can try is stop all medication for 3-6 months and then see if you are in an acceptable range naturally. as for myself,i use clomid on and off and then use testosterone cypionate at 100mgs per week for 5 monts out of the year along with some intermitten hch use.

[mranak]

Originally Posted by DavidZ

Can HCG restart the hypothalamus/pituitary axis to become self-sufficient again?

No.

hCG mimics LH, produced/released by the pituitary. When you supplement with hCG, the increased testosterone production acts as a negative feedback on the hypothalamus, thus (somewhat) suppressing it. This isn't a surprise. You injected hCG so your body compensates by adjusting the LH accordingly.

In other words, hCG only stimulates the "T" part (testes) of the HPT axis.

[mranak]

Originally Posted by DavidZ

Does HCG act to resuscitate a quiescent h/p axis? If not, then why does the amount of HCG required to get my T into the upper normal range continue to decline over time?

Decreasing your estradiol (E2) with the Indolplex/DIM and perhaps by other means as well (fat lose may mean less aromatase activity) might lead to decreased negative feedback on the hypothalmus, thus stimulating the entire HPTA axis. But I couldn't say for sure.

[DavidZ]

Originally Posted by mranak

Decreasing your estradiol (E2) with the Indolplex/DIM and perhaps by other means as well (fat lose may mean less aromatase activity) might lead to decreased negative feedback on the hypothalmus, thus stimulating the entire HPTA axis. But I couldn't say for sure.

My HCG dosage dropped by about 30% even before I started Indolplex/DIM.

I'm 5' 6" and weigh 143 pounds. My BMI is about 27. My weight has been very consistent for the entire 5 year period.

Obviously there's some other explanation.

[SWALE]

I, too have heard of it happening.

It seems like the body, once equilibrated at a good serum androgen level, seeks to maintain same, and will "pull up" low T levels sans TRT to get back there (sometimes).

It's nothing we can count on, though. The bottom line is that (1) NOTHING will surprise me with respect to the Endocrinological system anymore (2) Mother Nature is, was, and always will be, the boss.

[SWALE-Follower]

Originally Posted by SWALE

I, too have heard of it happening.

It seems like the body, once equilibrated at a good serum androgen level, seeks to maintain same, and will "pull up" low T levels sans TRT to get back there (sometimes).

It's nothing we can count on, though. The bottom line is that (1) NOTHING will surprise me with respect to the Endocrinological system anymore (2) Mother Nature is, was, and always will be, the boss.

That; sure is end of story.

[stat1951]

Swale,

Are you familiar with this information (it appears to be from a British source):

http://www.basskilleronline.com/hpta_reversal.html

I note that this therapy form uses a combination of substances in its protocol and wondered if that might be of major advantage when using HCG alone (This observational study documents the treatment protocol of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen in returning hormonal function to normal...)?

It appears that I have developed a secondary hypogonadism state due to highly elevated cortisol levels (Pseudo Cushing's). I am currently on an AdroGel therapy to bolster abnormally level of testosterone. Due to the continuing elevated levels of cortisol, the Androgel therapy has not proven to be what I had hoped. Assuming that current treatments reduce thecortisol levels eventually, I have been researching for methods that might "re-set" the HPAT Axis and restore normal testosterone production.

In lieu of that being successful, I believe that I would be very interested in your protocol of two days gel and one day HCG (repeating sequence).

Are you aware of any MDs in the NE Ohio area who work with you in that regard? Or if my personal PCP would be willing to work with that protocol is there a method where he can work with you in that regard?

Anyway, was wondering if you had seen that info on the above link....

Larry

[1cc]

Originally Posted by SWALE

I, too have heard of it happening.

It seems like the body, once equilibrated at a good serum androgen level, seeks to maintain same, and will "pull up" low T levels sans TRT to get back there (sometimes).

It's nothing we can count on, though. The bottom line is that (1) NOTHING will surprise me with respect to the Endocrinological system anymore (2) Mother Nature is, was, and always will be, the boss.

Swale,

Have you had to lower the HCG dosage on any of your "Daily HCG + weekly Cyp Protocol" patients over time because of this phenomenon?

[greyowl]

Another route to resetting to axis might be to try arimidex. I was diagnosed as being hypogondal and was able to reset the axis by taking adex at 2 mg ed x 5 weeks, followed by 1 mg eod x 5 weeks.

Some caveats:

When I started, my estrogen levels were too high as well as having test levels that were too low. I'm not sure this would work if your est levels are not part of the problem.

I wouldn't try higher doses or a longer cycle because it might suppress estrogen too much, and also because if it's not working after 10 weeks, it probalby won't work at all.

I did this under the supervision of a doctor who had experience in this form of treatment before (treating pro athletes who had abused AASs) so he knew what to look out for.

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by greyowl

Another route to resetting to axis might be to try arimidex. I was diagnosed as being hypogondal and was able to reset the axis by taking adex at 2 mg ed x 5 weeks, followed by 1 mg eod x 5 weeks.

Some caveats:

When I started, my estrogen levels were too high as well as having test levels that were too low. I'm not sure this would work if your est levels are not part of the problem.

I wouldn't try higher doses or a longer cycle because it might suppress estrogen too much, and also because if it's not working after 10 weeks, it probalby won't work at all.

I did this under the supervision of a doctor who had experience in this form of treatment before (treating pro athletes who had abused AASs) so he knew what to look out for.

Here is a link on what Grayowl is taking about. Lowing E2 will bring up T levels but I think it is because the cells share the same space and when E2 is to high there is not palce for the T to go. Plus the brain can't tell the difference between E2 and T so if E2 is high the brain can't tell if it is T for not and does not send the message to the testis to make more T.
http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBo...stosterone.htm
Phil

[BigRagu]

Originally Posted by mranak

No.

hCG mimics LH, produced/released by the pituitary. When you supplement with hCG, the increased testosterone production acts as a negative feedback on the hypothalamus, thus (somewhat) suppressing it. This isn't a surprise. You injected hCG so your body compensates by adjusting the LH accordingly.

In other words, hCG only stimulates the "T" part (testes) of the HPT axis.

from my understanding HCG mimics LH, FSH and TSH ............... FSH being the hormone responsible for sperm production and what makes up most of the mass of the testicles.............