HCG vs. TRT

[DavidZ]

Originally Posted by marianco

One of the things I am trying to do is to understand the mechanisms of action (including biochemical pathways) that are occurring with hormonal treatment which then allows me to predict what will happen in a person with treatment.

HCG only treatment is quite a different animal from testosterone replacement therapy with transdermal or intramuscular routes.

From what I know so far (subject to correction):
1. HCG is an analog to FSH, LH, and Thyroid hormone.



5. It increases thyroid activity

That's the first I've heard of HCG affecting thyroid hormone/activity.

I'd be interested in some more information on this topic.

Originally Posted by marianco

2. It increases Cytochrome P450scc, the enzyme that turns cholesterol into pregnenolone, to start the cascade of steroid hormone production in the testes. This allows the testes to make numerous hormones besides testosterone - many of which we have inadequate knowledge as to the importance or function - yet they may be very important.
3. It increases testosterone production.
4. It increases sperm production - maintaining fertility - unlike pure testosterone replacement.
6. It allows the testes to make progesterone (which increases dopamine, serotonine, norepinephrine activity and blocks glutamate activity in the brain - giving it a mood stabilizing, anxiolytic, antidepressant effect. Progesterone also promotes nurturing behavior as opposed to aggression.)
7. Aesthetically, it keeps your testicles large.
8. Active testicles may have more sensation - thus sex may be more enjoyable - particularly oral.

I do not know yet if Cytochrome P450scc in other tissues such as the adrenals and skin are also stimulated by HCG. If so, this is another wide area of difference between testosterone-only replacement and HCG treatment.

Thus HCG is a more complete solution to hormone replacement therapy than testosterone alone. This may account for its many other advantages over testosterone treatment. And this means there is much that we do not know that are important considerations.

It's always amazed me how the vast majority of doctors ignor these other bodily actvities when they dismiss HCG as a TRT option.

Originally Posted by marianco

The downsides of pure HCG treatment:
1. The risk of testicular cancer from overstimulating the testes

Please recheck your research on this. I researched this issue a while back concluded that this is a misconception. Here's why.

When a doctor suspects testicular cancer (TC) he does a blood test for HCG. Elevated HCG is an indication that TC is present. However, there is no research that indicates HCG causes TC. But it is understandable that some people might mistakenly think that it does because of the first sentence in this paragraph.

Originally Posted by marianco

2. Possibly permanent primary hypogonadism - shutting down the testes because they become HCG-resistant when high doses are used.

Unlikely as long as your careful and knowledgable.

Originally Posted by marianco

3. Frequent injections. Risk of infection if not careful.

Unlikely with subq injections.

Originally Posted by marianco

4. Higher cost (a 10% testosterone cream can cost you as little as $15 for 30 grams).

With HCG at $45 a vial for 2 months, can you get much cheaper than that?

With my insurance, I pay $20 for 3 vials which lasts me six months. At $3.33 a month, I doubt anyone is paying less than that for standard TRT.

Originally Posted by marianco

5. Difficulty explaining what you are carrying on to examiners on airline flights - i.e. needles.

Been on at least 30 flights with needles in my carry-on. They've never once stopped to take a look at them.

Although they stop me every time to look at my small round-tipped scissors (although I understand that's about to end ).

Originally Posted by marianco

6. Self-injection is not as natural an action as spreading a cream on your skin.

I both inject (HCG) and apply cream (DHT) daily. I actually find the cream about as inconvenient as injecting. The inconvenience with cream is that it limits your activity for about 2 hours or more after you apply it.

Originally Posted by marianco

The tan look you have DaveZ makes me wonder about the relationship between Testosterone, Estrogens, HCG, FSH, LH, Thyroid hormone, Cortisol, ACTH (which leads to increased cortisol and aldosterone and other adrenal hormone production), and melanocyte-stimulating hormone (which causes darkening of skin), and the other steriod hormones made from HCG stimulation of the testes.

ACTH and Melanocyte-stimulating hormone are both products of cleaving the ACTH-prohormone. Some internal malignancies cause the brain to make excess ACTH, which then causes excess corticol production, leading to ectopic Cushing's Syndrome (characterized by generalized hyperpigmentation, muscle wasting, hypokalemia, edema, and hypertension). Increasing ACTH also happens to increase melanocyte-stimulating hormone since it is made simultaneously with ACTH. This leads to to the darkened skin seen in the syndrome.

This stuff is over my head, so I won't comment on it.

[bassack]

I've been on HCG only for seven weeks. I just tapered my dose down to 250 IU EOD after having been on 2,000 IU 2 x / week for the first three weeks. I tested after the first four weeks and had gotten my Total T to the middle of the range (Total T 696 ng/dL 250-1100).

I'm still battling high E2 (ESTRADIOL, ULTRASENSITIVE 50 pg/mL 10-50) with Indolplex/DIM but no change in my symptoms (ED,water retention) yet.

I'm writing because I have always had skin issues. I'm quite pale. I've had 9 basal cell and 1 squamous cell carcinomas, which is unusual in someone aged 44. I've always had nevi (moles) and skin tags in several places on my body but my doctor ruled out neurofibromatosis. I'm wondering if there's any link between my hypogonadism and my skin and if anyone has any research in this regard that they can point out.

[cpeil2]

Originally Posted by DavidZ

y.

When a doctor suspects testicular cancer (TC) he does a blood test for HCG. Elevated HCG is an indication that TC is present. However, there is no research that indicates HCG causes TC. But it is understandable that some people might mistakenly think that it does because of the first sentence in this paragraph.

And there are different types of testicular cancer, only one of which produces hCG.

[Vforcer2]

Here is an article I found yesterday regarding the relationship of HCG and stimulation of the thyroid. It is not a study.

http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php...428&issueID=35

I started HCG therapy at 200 units per day about two weeks ago. I will have a blood draw in about a week. So far I find it the easiest of protocols to manage, and thus far (it is early) things are going very well.

Problems I have with the most popular theapiies(for secondary hypogonadism) are as follows:

1. Injectable T causes enormous spikes in T and then E causing physiological disturbances. Even at a low dose of 100mg per week, your serum free T will likely spike ot 1400 withing the first 48 hours (before dropping) or so.....and well that ain't normal and will cause inconsistant emotions, libido, water retention, DHT levels, etc.

2. Creams/Gels are a daily nuisance that drive DHT levels too high, which would be fine to a certain degree if I was already bald. I like my hair and want to keep it as long as possible.

After giving the HCG method a great deal of thought it just seemed to make more sense and be the closest thing to what my body already does. I also like the fact that this method is endorsed by at least two major players in HRT and that is Dr. Eugene Shippen, and Dr. Alan Mintz(of Cenegenics Medical Institute, which BTW has thousands of patients).

I may change the way I feel about this after being on it for a while, but right now my libido is great, nightime and morning erections are every single day, and I am already seeing my muscles fill out like when I was on T-cyp. I also like the neurologic benefits mentioned above by marianco. I am hypothyroid, so it appears there may be a positive benefit there are well. If my DHT levels turn out to not be high enough, I will consider adding a smidge of DHT cream or a smidge of T cream.

[The_Skeptic]

Originally Posted by DavidZ

Been on at least 30 flights with needles in my carry-on. They've never once stopped to take a look at them.

But don't you have to keep HCG refrigerated? That is a concern with me about traveling with it.

[Vforcer2]

Originally Posted by bassack

I've been on HCG only for seven weeks. I just tapered my dose down to 250 IU EOD after having been on 2,000 IU 2 x / week for the first three weeks. I tested after the first four weeks and had gotten my Total T to the middle of the range (Total T 696 ng/dL 250-1100).

I'm still battling high E2 (ESTRADIOL, ULTRASENSITIVE 50 pg/mL 10-50) with Indolplex/DIM but no change in my symptoms (ED,water retention) yet.

I'm writing because I have always had skin issues. I'm quite pale. I've had 9 basal cell and 1 squamous cell carcinomas, which is unusual in someone aged 44. I've always had nevi (moles) and skin tags in several places on my body but my doctor ruled out neurofibromatosis. I'm wondering if there's any link between my hypogonadism and my skin and if anyone has any research in this regard that they can point out.

I would think you are battling high E2 because those astronomical doses of HCG caused a large spike in your T production converting to E2. Go to a nightly protocol instead of EOD. The larger the dosage, the larger the spikes, the more E2. Your E2 is not far out of reach. You just need to drop it around 15 points to achieve a 20-1 ratio.

[The_Skeptic]

Originally Posted by bassack

I'm writing because I have always had skin issues. I'm quite pale. I've had 9 basal cell and 1 squamous cell carcinomas, which is unusual in someone aged 44. I've always had nevi (moles) and skin tags in several places on my body but my doctor ruled out neurofibromatosis. I'm wondering if there's any link between my hypogonadism and my skin and if anyone has any research in this regard that they can point out.

In my case, I've always had extremely dry skin, which is why I use a moisturizer.

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by The_Skeptic

But don't you have to keep HCG refrigerated? That is a concern with me about traveling with it.

I use a freeze pack and put it in a small insulated lunch bag it was still dam cold after 8 hrs. When I got to the hotel I called the desk and told them I needed a small frige to keep meds in and they give you one free.

[DavidZ]

Originally Posted by pmgamer18

I use a freeze pack and put it in a small insulated lunch bag it was still dam cold after 8 hrs. When I got to the hotel I called the desk and told them I needed a small frige to keep meds in and they give you one free.

Exactly. Went to my local pharmacies looking for an insulated bag and one pharmacy had one behind the counter and gave it to me. Turns out this bag is better than the ones that they sell.

The little freezer packs are available all over. The bigger ones seem to last longer. I'm going to Mexico next week and my trip is about 14 hours door to door.

Also, I prefill as many small (31 gauge) syringes as I'll need for the trip. That way I don't have to blow a whole vial each trip or worry about keeping it cool on the way home. I bring an unreconstituted vial and large syringe as a back up. I've never had to use it, but it's nice to know it's there.

[The_Skeptic]

Originally Posted by DavidZ

Also, I prefill as many small (31 gauge) syringes as I'll need for the trip.

And you've never had any issues with TSA? Do they even see it or ask you about it? Are they on your carry-on?

[DavidZ]

Originally Posted by The_Skeptic

And you've never had any issues with TSA? Do they even see it or ask you about it?

I presume they see it, but they've never questioned it.

But like I said, they do stop me every time to see if my little scissors have rounded tips. If they were pointed, they would have confiscated them a long time ago.

Now I just take the scissors out and put them in the little rubber tubs. Saves us all the time and hassle.

But, no, they've never even asked to open my carry-on to look at the syringes.

Originally Posted by The_Skeptic

Are they on your carry-on?

Always. I would never put my meds in checked baggage. That would be thoroughly dumb.

But, of course, I always travel with a copy of all my presecriptions (as per airline rules) just in case someone might question me. But it's never happened.

[androjello]

Great info there. I am currently on a trip in Mexico. I left my hCG at home and just brought my test cyp vial and enough syringes to last the trip. Next time I will follow this advice on traveling with meds.

[SWALE]

While the beta subunit of HCG shares moiety (electrostatics and sterics--meaning it looks much the same to the receptor) with that of TRH, HCG does not stimulate the thyroid. That is why "fat farms" quit using it for such decades ago.

[SWALE]

BTW, good responses DavidZ.

[marianco]

Great responses. A lot of food for thought. And I still have much to learn.

[Albert]

Originally Posted by cpeil2

And there are different types of testicular cancer, only one of which produces hCG.

You are correct cpeil2, there are two types of TC, Seminoma and Nonseminoma and only Nonseminoma has blood markers, Alpha-fetoprotein and hCG (beta subunit).

As my hCG got over 50,000 for a good while, I wonder it that is why my testes no longer produce Testosterone.

While I'm dribbling on about Testicular Cancer, I hope you guys check the "Boys" at least once a month and get to know them real well.

Later,
Albert.

[SWALE]

Well said, Albert.

From my Consultation:

PLEASE regularly self-examine your testicles. Testicular cancer is the number one cancer in men your age. It is very bad when it goes undetected, but quite curable when caught early. On the first of the month, every month, in the shower, is a good time. DO NOT FORGET TO DO THIS! Here is a website telling how:

http://www.sex-ed101.com/tse.html

[DavidZ]

Here's another HCG travelling tip.

I bought a refridgerator thermometer for about $6 at Bed, Bath & Beyond. I put it in my freezer pack when I travel and in the refridgerator at my destination.

I use it to monitor the temperature of (a) my freezer pack when I arrive to make sure the freezer pack made it all the way through my journey and (b) the refrigerator at my destination. Often I find that the refrigerator at my destination is not set properly and I'm able to adjust it, accordingly. My recollection is that the old insert used to say that after reconstitution, the vial should be kept between 34 and 44 degrees. I can't find this info on the new insert. Refrigerators should generally be set for 38 to 40 degrees.

I also use the thermometer at home when I'm not travelling to set my own refridgerator.

[1cc]

Originally Posted by DavidZ

Here's another HCG travelling tip.

I bought a refridgerator thermometer for about $6 at Bed, Bath & Beyond. I put it in my freezer pack when I travel and in the refridgerator at my destination.

Good tip! I will be doing that in future.