Health care in US

[zkt]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bes...hael.moore.cnn

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by zkt

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bes...hael.moore.cnn

People get what they deserve.
If they ask long enough, they are going to get it.
They will be sorry when it comes.
That is social medicine and mosque plus elimination of all other religions.
I am sure all the gays in New York and San francisco will love the change.
That also includes my dance teacher who is a gay. With his parner and government's help they adopted 7 handicaped children.

Why Megazoid came to USA
Why the guy from Sweden (forgot his moniker) cannot get help in his country

Why the girl I know, who is on USA welfare got her hip replacement pronto, second hip on the way, she will decide when
Btw, she have her apartment paid, have a food, car, television, phone the whole thing. Wonder why she is classified as poor.

Improvement is always desirable, just watch out so it is actually for the better.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by JanSz

People get what they deserve.
If they ask long enough, they are going to get it.
They will be sorry when it comes.
That is social medicine and mosque plus elimination of all other religions.
I am sure all the gays in New York and San francisco will love the change.
Plus the "pleasures" of war right at home rather than watching all this on television.
That also includes my dance teacher who is a gay. With his parner and government's help they adopted 7 handicaped children.

Why Megazoid came to USA
Why the guy from Sweden (forgot his moniker) cannot get help in his country

Why the girl I know, who is on USA welfare got her hip replacement pronto, second hip on the way, she will decide when
Btw, she have her apartment paid, have a food, car, television, phone the whole thing. Wonder why she is classified as poor.

Improvement is always desirable, just watch out so it is actually for the better.

------------------------------------

[troubledfinuser]

Im the guy from sweden

Im not getting the best help available this is true. But thats only because it takes time to move a large industry around, things has to be approved and tested b4 it can be applied to to people on a large scale etc so there is no room for private doctors going by what the feel is right . It could be awhile still b4 docs here aprove AIs and SERMS etc in hrt and similar new protocalls for other healthcare issues. When in need of getting the latest that medicine has to offer goverment run healthcare might not be the best choice. But most ppl do not have problems that requires the latest in medicine and for these (the vast majority) a goverment run healthcare is really very beneficial.

I hate the fact that my docs are so conservative. But i still think getting free care from profesional doctors with free hospital stays and medicine is hard to beat. The most any kind of trt could ever cost me here is about 400 usd + 30 usd / visit to doc a year. If hospitals are booked and ques are too long for a particular operation in yr neighberhood here, u can even go abroad and get the equivalent operation payed for by the goverment.

I still wish in my case i lived in us

i guess everything has a backside.

[Sunkist]

The US spends 16% of GDP for being 37th in the world in most health care markers... child mortality, etc... Germany and the Swiss spend 10% to be the best. We have 50 Million uninsured who get no care and can't afford any.. the rest of us pay for them when they get catastrophycally ill. We have another 50 Million with poor third party.

What we have is a mess and getting worse... it is bankrupting us as a nation.

[thegame]

Read closely:

1. I grew up poor in the U.S., had very high quality free health care the entire time.

2. got sick as an uninsured young adult, got great health care, made reasonable payments to re-pay. (since its illegal to turn someone away at an emergeny room in the U.S.)

3. Now I have some coverage through work, I get great health care.

4. My adult friends who are poor, either get on assistance or re-pay like I did.

Listen, 15% of Americans don't have healthcare coverage, that doesn't mean they don't get healthcare. We do need to drive down costs for middle America - not blow up the system.

[thegame]

I realize that many people can't grasp the concepts presented in high school economics, and slept through history class but. . .you may find this interesting (I don't mean anyone here of course. )

Does anyone wonder, as I get lectured about their great healthcare, why France's national debt is 2/3 their yearly GDP. Why they have double digit unemployment. Why they they don't have jobs for their young adults (remember the riots that shut down Paris.) I'll stop bagging on France, just trying to make a point.

Think:
We know Capitalism is more profitable and efficient that socialism (with certain laws to insure fairness.) Every American is already giving up 1/3 of their money (taxes - except the poor who pay none) so everyone gets a free education, social security for the old, free healthcare for the poor, and we give grants for everything under the sun from college tuition to starting a business. I have no problem with any of it, but we need to draw the line.

The programs we bitch that lag behind here are the government run ones, why now give them our healthcare system to run. Giving a gov't your money so they can run your life is not only foolish, it won't work for long (Right Soviet Union!)

"Free" anything not only isn't "free", it often yields unfortunate concequences.

[Sunkist]

There are about 50 Million uninsured in this country. Another almost 40+ have less than adequate insurance such as Medicaid and Medicare and substandard indemnity where many doctors are choosing not to paricipate.

Studies show these people wait until they are sickest to ever utilize the system and then it is very expensive. Most studies show they also do not repay anything, thus the indemnified and the cash payers pay for them. When you or your employer pay for the insurance they are paying for you and someone else.

Our system is based on sickness. No one makes money unless someone is sick. (The reason the national systems are more eficient is they are based on prevention. ) This also leads to fraud and abuse on up coding and problem focused diagnosis. Pay for performance is supposed to help, but even Leavitt admits this is years away.

Insurance company profits are never a factor in single payer systems. Thus the efficiency, as that is wasted money.

The extreme costs of health insurance are forcing jobs overseas. We are losing our capacity to produce past the service industry as a nation.

We have high quality medicine... for just a portion of our citizens, for the rest, there is no care, no treatment, avoidance... and finally a high bill for someone else to pay.

No one can argue the markers... for 16% GDP we get 37th in the world... almost third world. For 10% GDP the Swiss get the best cradle to grave in the world. Studies done at Emory University show that switching to single payer will save us enough as a nation to fund our Social Security shortfall in 5 years ( Anyone here want to pay the bill in 2030 when 2 workers will be supporting one retired person?)

Everyone wants to talk about the waiting lists in England and Canada who have lower end single payer.. a small percent of what we now pay as a nation. Studies taken from physicians in Canada show a higher positive attitude about their system as opposed to physicians here about ours. The same is true about patients.

Every single payer system has to have checks and balances. Canada uses allotment of care, to control costs. Single is also not for hero care... say liver transplants where a small indemnity policy would be needed... and it would be cheap. In the US we have over care in many instances, where there are 3 ultra imaging systems in the same small area... this does not bode well for good care ( over treatment) and for costs.

Folks, to me as a Public Health professional this is a no brainer. Even if you are blessed now with the best indemnity there is, that same infrastructure will still be here to satisfy your care and someone elses who has none now. It will cost far less too then what we currently have and that is rising at 2x the cost of living. The only ones arguing against this are big Pharma and the insurance lobby.. who put out the rubbish about waiting lines and quality of care. The Physicians are on board cept the leadership at AMA. It is time to make America competitive and give every one a chance to be healthy.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by Sunkist

There are about 50 Million uninsured in this country. Another almost 40+ have less than adequate insurance such as Medicaid and Medicare and substandard indemnity where many doctors are choosing not to paricipate.

Studies show these people wait until they are sickest to ever utilize the system and then it is very expensive. Most studies show they also do not repay anything, thus the indemnified and the cash payers pay for them. When you or your employer pay for the insurance they are paying for you and someone else.

Our system is based on sickness. No one makes money unless someone is sick. (The reason the national systems are more eficient is they are based on prevention. ) This also leads to fraud and abuse on up coding and problem focused diagnosis. Pay for performance is supposed to help, but even Leavitt admits this is years away.

Insurance company profits are never a factor in single payer systems. Thus the efficiency, as that is wasted money.

The extreme costs of health insurance are forcing jobs overseas. We are losing our capacity to produce past the service industry as a nation.

We have high quality medicine... for just a portion of our citizens, for the rest, there is no care, no treatment, avoidance... and finally a high bill for someone else to pay.

No one can argue the markers... for 16% GDP we get 37th in the world... almost third world. For 10% GDP the Swiss get the best cradle to grave in the world. Studies done at Emory University show that switching to single payer will save us enough as a nation to fund our Social Security shortfall in 5 years ( Anyone here want to pay the bill in 2030 when 2 workers will be supporting one retired person?)

Everyone wants to talk about the waiting lists in England and Canada who have lower end single payer.. a small percent of what we now pay as a nation. Studies taken from physicians in Canada show a higher positive attitude about their system as opposed to physicians here about ours. The same is true about patients.

Every single payer system has to have checks and balances. Canada uses allotment of care, to control costs. Single is also not for hero care... say liver transplants where a small indemnity policy would be needed... and it would be cheap. In the US we have over care in many instances, where there are 3 ultra imaging systems in the same small area... this does not bode well for good care ( over treatment) and for costs.

Folks, to me as a Public Health professional this is a no brainer. Even if you are blessed now with the best indemnity there is, that same infrastructure will still be here to satisfy your care and someone elses who has none now. It will cost far less too then what we currently have and that is rising at 2x the cost of living. The only ones arguing against this are big Pharma and the insurance lobby.. who put out the rubbish about waiting lines and quality of care. The Physicians are on board cept the leadership at AMA. It is time to make America competitive and give every one a chance to be healthy.

I suggest that you move to China, Libia or other well to do countries, yes, UK or Sweden are also on that list. This request is urgent in case that you need hight tech medical care.

And seriously, the more power we give to our government (in just about anything) the less freedom is left with citizens.

[cpeil2]

Originally Posted by JanSz

People get what they deserve.
If they ask long enough, they are going to get it.
They will be sorry when it comes.
That is social medicine and mosque plus elimination of all other religions.
I am sure all the gays in New York and San francisco will love the change.
That also includes my dance teacher who is a gay. With his parner and government's help they adopted 7 handicaped children.

Why Megazoid came to USA
Why the guy from Sweden (forgot his moniker) cannot get help in his country

Why the girl I know, who is on USA welfare got her hip replacement pronto, second hip on the way, she will decide when
Btw, she have her apartment paid, have a food, car, television, phone the whole thing. Wonder why she is classified as poor.

Improvement is always desirable, just watch out so it is actually for the better.

See #3 of the rules of this board.

[Sunkist]

Originally Posted by JanSz

I suggest that you move to China, Libia or other well to do countries, yes, UK or Sweden are also on that list. This request is urgent in case that you need hight tech medical care.

And seriously, the more power we give to our government (in just about anything) the less freedom is left with citizens.

Respectfully, the current models that DHSS?HRSA are proposing do not include the more heroic care. A national model is based on prevention, so some prosthetics and transplants will not be covered. This is taken care of with a very inexpensive rider to the national system... like we have with Medicare where if Medicare is all you have, you have poor insurance, and it is being lessened all the time. Thus the same infrastructure will be utilized to deliver the same world-class care... just not paid for with national money.

We simply cannot afford the current as a nation. It is a make or break situation very soon... just like Social Security. I do think this is relevant here as prevention for middle aged disease is at the root of TRT.

Personally I am a compassionate libertarian. But where a profit motive interferes with the good of the citizens, government must step in.

[The_Skeptic]

Originally Posted by JanSz

I suggest that you move to China, Libia or other well to do countries, yes, UK or Sweden are also on that list. This request is urgent in case that you need hight tech medical care.

And seriously, the more power we give to our government (in just about anything) the less freedom is left with citizens.

I know you are Polish so I understand your extreme reluctance to government programs. This happens to people who spent years living under communist rule.

But a national health care plan is not communism. It does not mean the government is suddenly going to tell you what music you can listen to, what books you can read or what websites you can post on.

It just means that every American citizen will be guaranteed health care. I don't know if you are familiar with the Preamble of the U.S. Constitution, which states:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

[zkt]

Consider this:
The fundamental goal of all corporations is to make as much profit as possible. Check your Econ 101.
By definition the care of the people is then secondary.
The system cant serve two masters.

Itis true that those of us lacking medical insurance can still get health care. But it is generally thru the hospital ERs and that is the most expensive route of all. We all end up paying for the lack of universal health care coverage in terms of higher costs.

The Veterans Administration health care system, altho seriously underfunded, does a remarkable job for those it cares for. The recent problems at some facilities was due to turning over services to the private sector who screwed things up. The VA negociates drug prices, unlike medicare, and is far ahead of almost all private hospitals in terms of computerization. We are very close to being able to provide patient access to medical records over the internet. Patients will be able to print out their lab results, view doctors reports and renew Rxs from their home pc. In patient (hospitalized) drugs are bar coded- no more wrong drugs to the wrong patient. ALL patient medical records are in a central computer system and accessable to the entire staff. Check out how your private system works- one doctor doesnt know what the other is doing even within the same facility. Private hospitals arent even close to providing any of this. And to top it off, some of the VAMCs are using wireless internet links so that doctors and residents can study a hospitalized patient from a distance. Thats the first step toward medicine via the internet. And finally, the VA provides a higher degree of care than corporate entities at lower cost than corporate counterparts.

I guess we should do away with the VA huh ?

[fringefan]

I am all for some type of national plan you can choose or pic one of the plans that are currently offererd. I am convinced that any person that does a few hours of research can diagnois most conditions and with a few days wooth of research you will know more than most family doctors. My insurance has gone up about 1000.00 dollars in 8 years with a 400% increase in deductables. I think family doctors are taking a lesson from chiropractors by making it a point to get you in the door more often to imcrease revenue. You have to be ignorant to think we have a great system and believe what US health officials tell you in regards to our quality and saftey of doctors and drugs bought outside the US. Look at any country and you will find that 9/10 times doctors are almost always some of the highest paid workers in a given country. If you want to talk economics then you might have heard of the law of large numbers meaning that the larger your base the more predictable your revenues and losses become. Having a national system would lower costs but if capitalists really want to see it improve without goverment then you need a walmart for the insureance industry that drives down costs and forces suppliers to be more cost efficient.

[Sunkist]

fan, you are correct but in defense of providers, this is the hand they are dealt. They would rather practice one on one medicine but they cannot. The planners at DHHS with their ideas of 'pay for performance' are muddying the waters. The idea is to cut costs, and that is where volume comes from.

Physicians have seen their income cute drastically in the primary care and internist fields as well as others. I know physicians leaving the field right now because of litigation potential and less than adequate income. What health care providers face every day for less than you would believe would make anyone leave.

When a physcian who does not even start a career until 12 years after anyone else and with a 200 to 250 K debt,, cannot survive we have the makings of a problem. That is why many of them support single payer: It would be preferable to make less and have a decent working invironment than what we have now: adversarial medicine.

Blame the insurance companies... they are the ones with the profits.