I am on HRT with DIM...

[forex]

Hi-

I may be able to help in your research regarding DIM as I have already been on it for 3 weeks.

I am 34, 6'1 and 225. My HRT Doc found my free test levels at 47 and my IGF-1 levels at 165, so he recommended I go on an HRT program.

I started in late December 04. He has given me 6IU HGH a week as well as 4000 units of HCG a week (all mixed in same vial so I do 1 shot a day, b4 bed). In addition I take a bunch of antioxidants as well twice a day.

I noticed after the first week that my dry skin (on forehead) had gone away, but then about 2 weeks in it came back! My wedding ring got tighter and I put on 10lbs.

My first blood test 6 weeks in came back well. Free test up to 180 and IGF-1 at 266, I forgot what my E2 levels were at but the Doc said they were high, so he cut back on the HCG to 3500 a week from 4000 and upped the HGH to 7IU a week. My Dr. does not want to use an aromatase inhibitor unless it is absolutely necessary. So he said give it another 6 weeks and we'll test your blood again...

At about that time I came across an article regarding DIM and how it works on cutting down E2, so I bought some and started taking 4 pills(125 mg 35% DIM) a day, 2 in AM and 2 in PM. I have really not noticed much of a difference, so I wanted to inquire SWALE (by the way very informative website, thank you) as to how much a man of my weight should be taking on a daily basis in order for it to really work?

I will continue to report how it affects me, and maybe this could help you data as far as your study is concerned. Thank you for your reply.

Ed

[jwtex]

Welcome to Meso-Rx

The first item most of us will want to know is what the reference ranges are for each of you tests results. If you have them send another post.

One should expect that the E2 levels will rise dramatically taking 3500 – 4000 IU of HCG in one shot. SWALE limits his patients to no more than 250-500 IU’s of HCG at a time, because of the E2 sides as well as some issues with LH insensitivity with a dose above 500IU. (See Swale’s post TRT: A Recipe for Success , A RECIPE FOR SUCCESS)

As far as the use of DIM for E2 control, some on this board have been successful reducing E2 with it, I on the other hand had no luck at all with a dosage of 1000 mg a day. DIM is an aromatize inhibitor that blocks the conversion of Test to E2.

My experience with HCG dosages of more than 500IU’s a week raised my E2 levels to double the top of range. I would assume that 3,500 to 4,000 a week would do the same.

As far as the weight gain, that is probably from the HGH, as one has a tendency to retain water when you first start. Or it might be the result of your E2 elevation as that will also cause the same.

Again, the best thing you can do now is read Swale’s Recipe for Success, as it has the best info out there.

[forex]

Thanks for your reply

My HRT Doc told me that the optimal range for free test from Quest is 150-180. As for the HGH (IGF-1 levels) for an athletic 25 yr old range from 350-550.

B-4 I posted a thing I read this entire site including, Swales document, all of which was very informative.

I take 3500iu a week, in 7 separate doses (500IU each) of HCG.

Back to the DIM, I ran out last night and did not take it this morning...I started to get a slight headache, could not concentrate and felt cloudy . So I attributed that to lack of DIM and E2 build up, 2 hrs ago I went to the store and bought DIM capsules from Vitamin World [ http://www.vitaminworld.com/pages/fi...&PID=1253&np=0 ] and now I feel fine, that was a 200mg dose I took.

Is that an average dose for people that it does work on? What is a safe amount to go up to? Thank you.

[jwtex]

Sorry that I misunderstood your post, as I thought you were taking your HCG in one shot.

I had taken 1000 mg of DIM a day for over two years with no side effects. I do not know if you can even have a toxic dose, or if it will lower you E levels to low. It just would not lower my E2 below top of range. I hope you are one of those lucky bros that it works on.

[forex]

Thank you, I hope it works too. I'll let you know.

[Vforcer]

Interesting. I wonder how DIM would work compared to 6-OXO or perhaps if they would compliment each other as an anti estrogen protocol.

[Matt Muscle]

Originally Posted by forex

Thanks for your reply

My HRT Doc told me that the optimal range for free test from Quest is 150-180. As for the HGH (IGF-1 levels) for an athletic 25 yr old range from 350-550.

B-4 I posted a thing I read this entire site including, Swales document, all of which was very informative.

I take 3500iu a week, in 7 separate doses (500IU each) of HCG.

Back to the DIM, I ran out last night and did not take it this morning...I started to get a slight headache, could not concentrate and felt cloudy . So I attributed that to lack of DIM and E2 build up, 2 hrs ago I went to the store and bought DIM capsules from Vitamin World [ http://www.vitaminworld.com/pages/fi...&PID=1253&np=0 ] and now I feel fine, that was a 200mg dose I took.

Is that an average dose for people that it does work on? What is a safe amount to go up to? Thank you.

I think the amount of HCG you are taking is still way too much.. contributing to your high E levels... try amounts of 250ius 3-4 times a week...
Some brands of Dim are from what I have heard not as good as others... Try Indolplex with Dim by PhytoPharmica... I have heard of many positive results with this one.

[jboldman]

jw, are you sure that dim is an anti-aromatase? Please check your sources and post up a reference, ie study. Here is one saying it induces aromatase activity.

jb

==================

Toxicol Sci. 2001 May;61(1):40-8. Related Articles, Links


2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin and diindolylmethanes differentially induce cytochrome P450 1A1, 1B1, and 19 in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells.

Sanderson JT, Slobbe L, Lansbergen GW, Safe S, van den Berg M.

Research Institute for Toxicology, Utrecht University, P.O. Box 80176, 3508 TD Utrecht, The Netherlands. t.sanderson@ritox.vet.uu.nl

Diindolylmethane (DIM) is an acid-catalyzed condensation product of indole-3-carbinol, a constituent of cruciferous vegetables, and is formed in the stomach. DIM alters estrogen metabolism and inhibits carcinogen-induced mammary tumor growth in rodents. DIM is a weak agonist for the aryl hydrocarbon (Ah) receptor and blocks the effects of estrogens via inhibitory Ah receptor-estrogen receptor cross-talk. DIM and various structural analogs were examined in H295R cells for effects on 3 cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes involved in estrogen synthesis and/or metabolism: CYP1A1, CYP1B1, and CYP19 (aromatase). Aromatase activity was measured by conversion of 1 beta-(3)H-androstenedione to estrone and (3)H(2)O. H295R cells were exposed to the test chemicals dissolved in dimethyl sulfoxide for 24 h prior to analyses. 2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin (TCDD) (0--30 nM) and DIM (0--10 microM) induced ethoxyresorufin-O-deethylase (EROD) activity, as a measure of CYP1A1 and possibly 1B1 activity, with EC(50) values of about 0.3 nM and 3 microM, respectively. DIM, but not TCDD, induced aromatase activity with an apparently maximal 2-fold increase at 10 microM; higher concentrations of DIM and many of its analogs were cytotoxic. TCDD (30 nM) significantly increased CYP1A1 and 1B1 mRNA levels, but had no effect on mRNA for CYP19. DIM (3 microM) significantly increased mRNA levels for all three CYPS: DIM analogs with substitutions on the 5 and 5' position (3 microM) induced aromatase and EROD activity, together with mRNA levels of CYP1A1, 1B1, and 19; analogs that were substituted on the central carbon of the methane group showed little or no inductive activity toward the CYPS: In conclusion, DIM and several of its analogs appear to induce CYPs via multiple yet distinct pathways in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells.

[jwtex]

[quote=jboldman]jw, are you sure that dim is an anti-aromatase? Please check your sources and post up a reference, ie study. Here is one saying it induces aromatase activity.

DIM (3 microM) significantly increased mRNA levels for all three CYPS: DIM analogs with substitutions on the 5 and 5' position (3 microM) induced aromatase and EROD activity, together with mRNA levels of CYP1A1, 1B1, and 19;

S**t, maybe that is why my E2 was so high! I started DIM on the advice of my PCP to keep my E2 in check.

[jboldman]

well, that is just one study so i would not bet the bank on it. It does have positive effects on the metabolism of e2

jb

[forex]

Originally Posted by jboldman

jw, are you sure that dim is an anti-aromatase? Please check your sources and post up a reference, ie study. Here is one saying it induces aromatase activity.

jb

==================

Toxicol Sci. 2001 May;61(1):40-8. Related Articles, Links


2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin and diindolylmethanes differentially induce cytochrome P450 1A1, 1B1, and 19 in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells.

Sanderson JT, Slobbe L, Lansbergen GW, Safe S, van den Berg M.

Research Institute for Toxicology, Utrecht University, P.O. Box 80176, 3508 TD Utrecht, The Netherlands. t.sanderson@ritox.vet.uu.nl

Diindolylmethane (DIM) is an acid-catalyzed condensation product of indole-3-carbinol, a constituent of cruciferous vegetables, and is formed in the stomach. DIM alters estrogen metabolism and inhibits carcinogen-induced mammary tumor growth in rodents. DIM is a weak agonist for the aryl hydrocarbon (Ah) receptor and blocks the effects of estrogens via inhibitory Ah receptor-estrogen receptor cross-talk. DIM and various structural analogs were examined in H295R cells for effects on 3 cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes involved in estrogen synthesis and/or metabolism: CYP1A1, CYP1B1, and CYP19 (aromatase). Aromatase activity was measured by conversion of 1 beta-(3)H-androstenedione to estrone and (3)H(2)O. H295R cells were exposed to the test chemicals dissolved in dimethyl sulfoxide for 24 h prior to analyses. 2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin (TCDD) (0--30 nM) and DIM (0--10 microM) induced ethoxyresorufin-O-deethylase (EROD) activity, as a measure of CYP1A1 and possibly 1B1 activity, with EC(50) values of about 0.3 nM and 3 microM, respectively. DIM, but not TCDD, induced aromatase activity with an apparently maximal 2-fold increase at 10 microM; higher concentrations of DIM and many of its analogs were cytotoxic. TCDD (30 nM) significantly increased CYP1A1 and 1B1 mRNA levels, but had no effect on mRNA for CYP19. DIM (3 microM) significantly increased mRNA levels for all three CYPS: DIM analogs with substitutions on the 5 and 5' position (3 microM) induced aromatase and EROD activity, together with mRNA levels of CYP1A1, 1B1, and 19; analogs that were substituted on the central carbon of the methane group showed little or no inductive activity toward the CYPS: In conclusion, DIM and several of its analogs appear to induce CYPs via multiple yet distinct pathways in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells.

Wow that is interesting too, the bottom line for me though is I believe it is actually working- the DIM-

Yesterday I took a total of 600mg split into 3 doses and I felt great, and remember I started the day without it and was not feeling to good (as I mentioned in my first post).

Swale if you are reading this I would love to hear your opinion and what dosage you are currently recommending to you other clients presently "testing" DIM. And if possible any thing they may notice while on it. Thank you

[jboldman]

remember now, i am not saying that dim does not work, just that it works in other ways than as an anti-aromatase.

jb

[SWALE]

That is a bombshell of a study, jb. I had not seen it before.

Please refer to the attached chart.

The CYP1A1 enzyme produces the wonderfully beneficial 2-hydroxyestrone metabolite. Therefore increasing its activity is a very good thing.

The CYP1B1 enzyme makes 4-hydroxyestrone, which, like 16-alpha-hydroxyestrone, is genotoxic, mutagenic and procarcinogenic. However, 4-OHE is inhibited with DMG. A better choice might be TMG, which becomes DMG after it donates a methyl group, and that event has various and sundary health benefits of its own. TMG must be taken at about twice the amount of DMG for its effects on estrogen management.

I have never heard anyone say this before, but perhaps we should not ever take DIM without TMG/DMG also, lest we increase 4-OHE levels. I will be lecturing on this very topic before the Royal College of Physicians in a few weeks, so maybe I have something new to share with them. Thank you for making me think about this topic today.

Calcium D-glucarate also inhibits 4-OHE. AAL Laboratories says folic acid will as well.

My understanding is that DIM improves the healthful 2-hydroxyestrone to nasty 16-alpha-hydroxyestrone ratio.

Here is the text from a slide in the lecture I give before the A4M:

To increase 2-OHE/16-aOHE:

Phytoestrogens
High protein, low fat diet
Reduce Omega-6 and AA generators
Add Omega-3’s
Add flaxseed
Di-indolemethane--DIM (300mg QD)
Indole-3-carbinol (I-3-C)
Inhibit aromatase activity

I have heard that DIM inhibits the CYP3A4 enzyme, which produces 16-aOHE, and that is also why 2-OHE/16-aOHE ratio goes up, but I am not sure about this. Perhaps someone else can come up with something on it.

As far as DIM causing an overall increase in total estrogens, I have heard the opposite. Dr. Michael Zeligs has written several articles on it, and so I have always considered DIM to have CYP19 (aromatase)-inhibiting properties. Maybe this is wrong, though.

Let's continue to dig in on this subject. At the end of my "A Primer on Estrogen Management in the Adult Male Patient" lecture, I close by calling this topic the "new frontier in TRT medicine". I truly believe it is that important.

[Vforcer]

More info on DIM and I3C can be found here:
http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm

[forex]

What a great link, thank you! I love the E2/DIM chart they have on this page:

http://www.dimfaq.com/site/diagram.htm

Thanks again for that post.

Swale, I thank you as well for your insightfull comments on DIM and TMG, where could one purchase that product? I have looked but only found it in powders with creatine.