Reverse T negative feedback

[The_Skeptic]

Originally Posted by Jtay

"Baclofen is a gaba B receptor agonist. In pharmacology an agonist is a substance that binds to a specific receptor and triggers a response in the cell. It mimics the action of an endogenous ligand (such as hormone or neurotransmitter) that binds to the same receptor. Receptors can be activated or inactivated either by endogenous (such as hormones and neurotransmitters) or exogenous (such as drugs) agonists and antagonists, resulting in stimulating or inhibiting the cell."

"Naltrexone is an opioid receptor competitive antagonist. Opioid receptors are a group of G-protein coupled receptors with opioids as ligands. The endogenous opioids are dynorphins, enkephalins, endorphins, endomorphins and nociceptin/orphanin FQ. The opioid receptors are ~40% identical to somatostatin receptors (SSTRs).A competitive antagonist is a receptor antagonist that binds to a receptor but fails to activate it. If an agonist competes with a competitive antagonist for the same binding site on the same receptor, the agonist molecules can be displaced from the binding site, resulting in a lower frequency of receptor activation.

While the aforesaid is the scientific definition difference, baclofen and naltrexone do share many of the same attributes as evidenced by both meds used in the treatment of addiction. Following is a less confusing explanation as to why both meds work similarly in treating addiction::

Baclofen reduces nigrostriatal dopaminergic neuronal activity. The nigrostriatal pathway is a neural pathway that connects the substantia nigra with the striatum. It is one of the four major dopamine pathways in the brain, and is particularly involved in the production of movement, as part of a system called the basal ganglia motor loop.

Loss of dopamine neurons in the substantia nigra is one of the main pathological features of Parkinson's disease, leading to a marked reduction in dopamine function in this pathway. The symptoms of the disease typically do not show themselves until 80-90% of dopamine function has been lost.

This pathway is also implicated in producing tardive dyskinesia, one of the side-effects of antipsychotic drugs. These medications (particularly the older typical antipsychotics) block D2 dopamine receptors in multiple pathways in the brain.

The desired clinical effect of reducing psychotic symptoms is thought to be associated with blocking dopamine function in the mesolimbic pathway only. However, as many of these drugs are not selective, they block dopamine in all pathways. When this happens in the nigrostriatal pathway, similar movement problems to those found in Parkinson's disease can occur.

However, in addiction the efficacy of naltrexone is thought to be a consequence of its ability to block the actions of endorphins that are released by alcohol and thereby inhibit dopamine that mediates pleasure (Herz, 1997).

In summary, they both inhibit dopamine at full strength and therefore both will more than likely inhibit libido at full strength. However, the main difference as it relates to what I have been talking about here on this thread relates to using low dose naltrexone (LDN) in lieu of full dose naltrexone (FDN) as referred to above. LDN works just opposite of FDN which is why it is A MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH MED. LDN only blocks endorphines/dopamine for 3-4 hours resulting in a huge up-regulation of same for the following 20 +/- hours which is why many believe, including myself, that LDN cures diseases and as I have found out, increases libido.

Now the million dollar question is will baclofen used one time at night in smaller doses such as 20mg/d do the same thing as LDN? I know baclofen used throughout the day, will act much like FDN which is why I quit using it. However, based on the similar characteristics of the meds, it is possible that low dose baclofen (LDB) is just waiting to be discovered by some curious sole. To be frank, I probably should have tried LDB before giving up on it as there are many positives from taking baclofen as I have pointed out in this thread. The only negative was the decrease in libido I was experiencing which coincidentally happened at the same time I discovered the LDN docs were onto the same thing as me more or less. Since they had a slew of supporting evidence on LDN, I made the decision to abort my Baclofen experiment which may, or may not have been the correct move. If low dose baclofen (LDB) works similar to LDN, it may have some advantages over LDN such as safer use with steroids. Although steroids taken 4 hours subsequent to LDN may void the LSD effect that I experienced taking both at the same time. Also, it may interest some to know that I believe there is sufficient scientific evidence supporting that both naltrexone and baclofen reverse steroid negative feedback.

Furthermore, I could see a potential use for both LDN and LDB by patients with different symptoms ie, LDN used by those who tend to be depressed with a lack of energy and LDB used by Type A manic personalities who need to find balance in their life.

I hope this helps your understanding of both meds.

Thanks, Jtay,

I have purchased a box of Baclofen and I plan to start taking it at night to help with my insomnia. The Ambien I take is not as effective as it used to be.

Before I begin my experiment, I plan on getting another blood test, this time testing for my GH levels as I have never done that. I want to see if the Baclofen actually increases my GH over time.

I plan to take 10 mg a night. Do you think this might contradict with the Selegiline I'm taking (which I'm using to replace the Adderall, which gave me too much anxiety)?

[Jtay]

Originally Posted by The_Skeptic

Thanks, Jtay,

I have purchased a box of Baclofen and I plan to start taking it at night to help with my insomnia. The Ambien I take is not as effective as it used to be.

Before I begin my experiment, I plan on getting another blood test, this time testing for my GH levels as I have never done that. I want to see if the Baclofen actually increases my GH over time.

I plan to take 10 mg a night. Do you think this might contradict with the Selegiline I'm taking (which I'm using to replace the Adderall, which gave me too much anxiety)?

"The concurrent use of MAO inhibitors and baclofen may result in increased CNS depressant effects. Caution is advised and the dosage of one or both agents should be adjusted accordingly."

In consideration of the aforesaid, check with your doctor about my following observations.... It seems as though it makes more sense to give Baclofen a try without possible conflict with other meds unless it is determined that other meds may offer additional benefits. However, even if a drug combination such as you suggest is determined necessary at some point in time, it seems more logical to try such combination only after your personal trial with baclofen dictates the necessity of same.

Also, it may interest you to know that I have posted a scientific study earlier in the thread about baclofen's successful use as a sleep aid @ 20mg/nightly. Also, coincidentally, if my memory serves my right, 20mg/n is the ideal dose for substantial increase in GH. Thus, if you don't have success at 10mg/n then 20mg/n might be considered if your doctor agrees. My friend also has insomnia and takes 20mg/n baclofen with success. However, don't expect instant results as his results took effect about 2 weeks after commencement . Also, it may interest you to know that baclofen had no negative effect on his libido at this dose which proves that all people react differently to meds as bac had the complete opposite effect on me. However, he is a type A personality where I am not which is why I tend to believe that both LDN and LDB have their place in anti-aging medicine.

How are you planning on testing your GH? 24HrU is the best method. If you don't have access to same, I will suggest a fairly reliable method utilizing blood tests to monitor GH although urine is much cheaper and, IMHO, more accurate. You should see a substantial increase in GH.

Regards,

[Jtay]

I took LDN last night about 2:00 AM and applied one tube of Testim about 8:00 AM. I had no negative side-effect from doing this which seems to prove that subsequent to the 4 (+/-) hour period LDN is active that it may be possible for one to take steroids without a negative side-effect such as I experienced when taking estrogel (a steroid hormone) simultaneously with LDN.

I already see my gonads drawing up as a result of T, however, I will wait to see if the 4 (+/-) hours subsequent to my LDN dosage tonight restores the LH lost during the 20 (+/-) hour period my LH was inhibited as a result of T and increased B-Ed.

[Jtay]

Known Baclofen Drug Interactions:

"Increased sedation may occur if baclofen is taken with agents acting on the central nervous system, alcohol or synthetic opiates. The risk of respiratory depression is also increased.

Combined treatment with baclofen and antihypertensives is likely to increase the fall in blood pressure; therefore the dosage of antihypertensive medication should be adjusted accordingly.

The concomitant administration of baclofen and tricyclic antidepressants may potentiate the pharmacological effects of baclofen resulting in pronounced muscular hypotonia.

In patients with Parkinsons disease receiving treatment with baclofen and levodopa plus carbidopa there have been several reports of mental confusion, hallucinations, headaches, nausea and agitation.

The concurrent use of MAO inhibitors and baclofen may result in increased CNS depressant effects. Caution is advised and the dosage of one or both agents should be adjusted accordingly.

Caution should be exercised when administering baclofen and magnesium sulphate or other neuromuscular blocking agents since a synergistic effect may theoretically occur."

[The_Skeptic]

Originally Posted by Jtay

"The concurrent use of MAO inhibitors and baclofen may result in increased CNS depressant effects. Caution is advised and the dosage of one or both agents should be adjusted accordingly."

In consideration of the aforesaid, check with your doctor about my following observations.... It seems as though it makes more sense to give Baclofen a try without possible conflict with other meds unless it is determined that other meds may offer additional benefits. However, even if a drug combination such as you suggest is determined necessary at some point in time, it seems more logical to try such combination only after your personal trial with baclofen dictates the necessity of same.

Also, it may interest you to know that I have posted a scientific study earlier in the thread about baclofen's successful use as a sleep aid @ 20mg/nightly. Also, coincidentally, if my memory serves my right, 20mg/n is the ideal dose for substantial increase in GH. Thus, if you don't have success at 10mg/n then 20mg/n might be considered if your doctor agrees. My friend also has insomnia and takes 20mg/n baclofen with success. However, don't expect instant results as his results took effect about 2 weeks after commencement . Also, it may interest you to know that baclofen had no negative effect on his libido at this dose which proves that all people react differently to meds as bac had the complete opposite effect on me. However, he is a type A personality where I am not which is why I tend to believe that both LDN and LDB have their place in anti-aging medicine.

How are you planning on testing your GH? 24HrU is the best method. If you don't have access to same, I will suggest a fairly reliable method utilizing blood tests to monitor GH although urine is much cheaper and, IMHO, more accurate. You should see a substantial increase in GH.

Regards,

I'm getting my GH tested through my blood. It's one of many that I purchased through LEF. I was planning on getting to the labs sometime this week, but I just haven't been able to fast the night before or I've been busy doing other things.

Jtay, I really appreciate your input to this forum. You are a brilliant man.

[Jtay]

Originally Posted by The_Skeptic

I'm getting my GH tested through my blood. It's one of many that I purchased through LEF. I was planning on getting to the labs sometime this week, but I just haven't been able to fast the night before or I've been busy doing other things.

Jtay, I really appreciate your input to this forum. You are a brilliant man.

Thank you. I hope it works out for you. Please report your results.

[Jtay]

BREAKING NEWS!!!!!

It sure appears that my personal trial with LDN combined with HRT may yield some revolutionary news regarding anti-aging medicine. Here is why...

It appears at this point and time that LDN does indeed stop the negative feedback of HRT which means that soon HCG may be a thing f the past.

In my past experience with TRT, pegnenolone, DHEA, and all steroid hormones, my gonads would always shrink as all steroid hormones result in negative feedback resulting in inhibition of LH and shrinkage of gonads.

The good news is.....My gonads are maintaining their size while on HRT, with the use of LDN 1X nightly. Which probably means the 3-4 hour period subsequent to taking LDN when inhibition of B-ed and increase in LH takes place, that during this small time period my body is producing enough LH to make up for the loss of LH as a result of HRT.

I have been applying one tube of testim daily in the morning when I wake and also on my scalp. Now I will change my routine to 10mg pregnenolone at 8:00AM with application of a small amount of Testim only to the scalp and 10mg DHEA at 4:00 PM and LDN ar 12:00 midnight.

As most of you know scientific studies show one can get the same results from DHEA and preg as they do from T. I have posted such a scientific study on this thread regarding DHEA. I choose to do this out of convenience as I travel a lot and prefer to take pills. However, I will keep applying a small amount of testim to my scalp as I have reason to believe that steroid hormones applied to the scalp may prevent baldness while on HRT and may promote hair growth.

THIS IS EXCITING NEWS!!!!!! FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE I AM ON HRT WITHOUT THE WORRY OF SHRINKING GONADS AND WITH THE POSSIBLE ADDED BENEFIT OF DISEASE PREVENTION BY TAKING LDN!!!!!!

Lets hope my results keep up. At this point, I remain cautiously optimistic, however, it sure appears as though taking LDN 1x nightly may be the most revolutionary occurrence in anti-aging medicine ever.

[Jtay]

PS:

My increased libido is still very encouraging and my ears are ringing less which may mean my cortisol level has quit increasing. I remain very hopeful that LDN, via increased dopamine, will cure my cushing's disease and dissolve my tumor as scientific studies support same.

[Willje]

I hate to see this very intriguing thread stall.I'm interested in giving LDN a try,but am switching HRT docs and don't want to skew new testing I'm having done.I think I noticed that Baclofen is on the $4 prescription list of a very well known retail chain,for those interested in that line of research....

[zkt]

Yes I`m interested in this too and have the N as well as a tramadol monkey on my back. Soon as I can get off it I`ll be ready to get into it. Lemme know if you start anything.

[Jtay]

Hello folks. Sorry I have not been posting. I am leaving for Brazil this Thursday, Nov 8th, and I have been extremely busy with my typical research and research on natural birth as I will be delivering my own baby at my house in a very small village in Brazil in December.

I am still taking LDN. However, I quit taking steroids, DHEA, Preg. Test, E2, as I attribute same to my reduced libido while on LDN. In other words, for me, LDN without steroids = increased libido and LDN with steroids = decreased libido. In fact, in opposition to many anti-aging docs beliefs, there is much scientific evidence that indicates that steroids result in ED thus, this is in direct opposition to TRT. How many times on these threads have you heard people say...."my T is now increased, but I still can't get an erection" ?.

Furthermore , I now believe that taking LDN 2-3 x/d may be just enough to keep your androgen levels in check without sacrificing your libido as I am having success, which means it may indeed be the "magic pill" as it might eliminate the need for TRT although, too early to tell.

For more on 2-3 x/d dosing see my prior posts. I give the complete scientific explanation as to why different dosing needs to be tried by those with andropause looking for the "Magic Pill" and not wanting to go on TRT. I am now on 3x/d dosing with success and will drop back to 2x/d dosing to see what happens. I believe a good starting point for those with decreased androgen levels would be LDN 2x/d (every 12 hours) for 1-3 months with labs run thereafter. If labs show your androgen levels to be in the mid-upper range then stay with 2x/d, if not, repeat test with 3x/d dosing (every 8 hours). If you do not have andropause and want to take LDN solely to fight disease or as a preventative measure then I would stay with the rec on the LDN web-site @ 1x/d.

I will report when I can. Meantime this thread does not have to die out. Those trying LDN for andropause or other, should report their results here for the benefit of all. This is not my thread...it is your thread. I just started it as a service to the public with no idea that it would result in a possible revolutionary breakthrough in anti-aging medicine.

I hope to see many posts here when I visit again.

See this link:

HomemadeLDN

[dcguy4u]

JTay,
Many Congratulations and good luck with the baby. I am going to start my Naltrexone trial soon. I will keep you posted. This thread will miss your contributions , do drop by here whenever you get a chance.

cheers

[brad]

I have been taking Baclofen for 27yrs 4 times a day because I'm a paraplegic and use it for spacticity. This drug when takin for a period of time must not be stopped abruplty. You should taper back & ween yourself off the drug. Also because it's a muscle relaxant it will cause tiredness or drowsiness. My testosterone levels were recently checked & my levels were extremely low & was put on 7.5mg androderm a day. So I doubt baclofen will help in any way with TRT

[Sherrill]

Come on guys,surely someone is trying this.I plan to myself .I am currently taking DHEA and HCG,I wonder if I would need to stop them both to take the LDN?

[LowTestosterone38]

Originally Posted by Jtay

Could this old drug find be revolutionary to bodybuilding and anti-aging medicine?

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ll/141/11/3940

What exactly is Baclofen:

Baclofen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, I know, the study was referring to intrathecal Baclofen. However, Baclofen is available in pill form for a very low cost of around .20 - .40 per tablet...very cheap! Here in the USA named Lioresal.

Ok, so does the pill form cross the BBB:

PubMed Home

The only hitch, I can't find any human studies. Anyone here tried it in their program in lieu of HCG?

Man, if this works in humans and eliminates the T Negative feedback this will be BIG NEWS.

My doctor will easily prescribe it because it is considered to be a "safe" drug. Just told him my muscles were stiff .

Also, wrote to Swale to get his thoughts.

If this is old news sorry as I don't have much time to monitor/research this board. However, I don't think it is widely known yet. If anyone tries it be sure to report your results. I'm under the impression that the Baclofen muscle relax characteristics counterbalances the T aggressiveness thus, you can increase T and still have the euphoria and build mass without the desire to kill - Lol!

Comments?

I was reading the "stickeys" and came across this post. I have taken baclofen by prescription...no I dont have MS or spinal cord injury, which is what baclofen is FDA approved for BTW. However, I have been diagnosed with very mild cervical dystonia (back of the head area) and a Neurologists gave me some to use as its used "off label" for dystonia.

It works great as a muscle relaxer but anybody who believes it has any sort of androgen effect or augmentation effect...it has zippo. If anything, baclofen will decrease sex drive and it caused delayed ejaculation in me. It also will make you fat quick and there are warnings on the monograph about it raising blood sugar...its not a good drug for anyone with diabetes or metabolic syndrome.

Youd be better off taking a benzo or a low dose anticonvulsant to combat the "aggressiveness" testosterone gives some men. Although, many with low T could benefit from getting aggressiveness back.

Some of the things I read on the Internet!

Baclofen is WORTHLESS as any sort of drug for men with hypogonadism or on TRT. I can assure you, baclofen will not give you any kind of anabolic effect like TRT or HCG will. All it will do is turn you into a sloth.

Fred

[lordshockspeare]

Fred,

It may be worthless if prescribed at its full dose, for its intended purpose. The theory being addressed here is if a relatively small dose taken before sleep might enhance GH output and get the Hypothalamus to spit out a little LH. During that time your libido would be decreased and being a sloth(ie sleep) is desired. If a small dose 10-20mg raises blood sugar this would not be a good time for it, so that could be one concern.

Fred in your experience, what dosage were you taking? Was it throughout the day? Was it larger than 20mg? Was it everyday?

I was considering trying Baclofen as sleep aid of sorts, due to its rather inexpensive cost, but wanted to due a bit of research first.