Reverse T negative feedback

[Jtay]

I addressed my prior post to Head Doc. However, I intended for all interested parties to read it as it pertains to my thoughts on a new thread for baclofen.

Thanks

[HeadDoc]

Originally Posted by Jtay

Head Doc,

I've been thinking about this and here are my thoughts,

First, I am here because I desire to help others with information about a forgotten drug, baclofen, and how it may revolutionize anti-aging and body building medicine if user results are in-line with the scientific studies.

Although the drug and scientific studies have been around for a long time, it took me 3+ years to discover them with countless hours of research including but not limited to the possible causes of my premature andropause and the possible cures for same.

Due to my engineering and research background, I was not willing to accept conventional protocol as it just didn't make since to me that they were treating the symptoms and not the disease itself. For one example, why would I put T in my body if it was at the bottom of the hormone chain and it was going to result in infertility, reduced semen, hypogonadism, baldness? I wanted to find out why T and other steroid hormones caused a negative feedback, what factors increased or decrease T, what role the GnRh played in the production of LH and T and why it couldn't be successfully stimulated for a long period of time etc., etc., etc?

For a while I would get thrown off course by the likes of so-called "advanced medicine" and the next great thing, that confusion would often set in not unlike the average person trying to weed through the maze of options and opinions . But then I would remembered two old adages that where instilled in me as a young man and that had resulted in my success....

"The more things change, the more they stay the same" and
"Keep it simple stupid"

So I returned to basics and tuned out modern day medicine and just like good old detective work, when a person's name surfaces time and time again, he/she becomes the main suspect, I remembered that during my research one possibility kept coming back to me time and time again.... the GABA B receptors.

So I focused my research in that area dissecting GABA B agonists, antagonists, GABA B positive receptor modulators, opiod agonists and antagonists etc., etc., etc. That research narrowed it down to two....GABA B agonist and Opiod agonists/antagonists which is currently where I believe the riddle will be solved.

So how did I rediscover baclofen and connect it with anti-aging and body building medicine?

I visited another thread about people who attribute their many health problems to the use of finasteride (propecia) of which, I am one. On that thread there was a young man telling of his incredible story of how he beat his devastating problems, which was basically premature andropuase, with a drug known as GHB. Most did not give him credit and a few even implied he was lying or even crazy.

However, I could feel the conviction in his written words and unlike the rest, I had knowledge that GHB was tied to the GABA B receptors of which, coincidentally is where I had narrowed my research down to. So I Googled GHB GABA B and wha-la, Baclofen!

As study after study confirmed that Baclofen provided the missing links in anti-aging and body building medicine, I was stunned and I still am, as I'm sure many of you monitoring this thread are.

I assume due to the interest this thread has generated in such a short time that some of you are going to try baclofen because it is a relatively safe drug with little downside and huge potential. In fact, I have already had some e-mails confirming this to be the case. Needless to say that any/all personal experiences to confirm or deny the scientific studies would be helpful.

*******I also want to make myself very clear....I am not encouraging or advising anyone to take baclofen. I am not a medical doctor and my advice is to seek council with a licensed medical doctor before trying any prescription medication. If you take baclofen you should do so under the guidence of your medical doctor.******

So all I ask in return for my sharing with you my findings, is that if you decide to try baclofen that you report your experience and post your labs (if you are using tests to monitor your progress that is) therefore, we can all benefit accordingly.

Head Doc, is it possibly to start a sticky thread for for members to share their personal experiences with baclofen? If so, maybe the heading...

Baclofen - The Magic Pill ? - Personal experiences.

We can keep this current thread for discussion and the new thread only for reporting personal experiences by those that have used or are currently using baclofen.

Just a thought. If not possible, no prob.

you start the thread and I will stick it.

[zkt]

I gotta say that I dont remember when I`ve witnessed such a thorough and well presented concept as this. Even if the content proves to be nil (not likely) it deserves a sticky based on presentation and to serve as a model of how research should be done.

[HeadDoc]

And the consensus is it sticks.

[Jtay]

Thanks Head Doc and ZKT

I will post the trail thread soon.

For those interested here is a link for the consumer fact sheet on the name brand baclofen

http://www.pbs.gov.au/cmi/nvclrsor10906.pdf

[Jtay]

As we approach my personal trail with baclofen, I thought it may be helpful to share some hypothesis about why certain possible side-effects of this drug, like sedation, are not concerning to me.

In fact, lets address sedation first. If my memory serves me correct I believe that around 50%+/- of those on baclofen experience drowsiness. On first look that would be alarming, however, one must remember that the drug data sheet relating to baclofen was arrived at through drugs trails in most part for its intended purpose to reduce spasms with dosages up to 100 mg/d.

Now lets backtrack for a moment. Remember the 4 scientific links I provided in this thread that showed low doses of baclofen "substantially" increases GH. These tests showed that GH increased subtantialy at 10,20,30 mg/d. Also, my interpretation of the amount of baclofen it takes to reverse T negative feedback in sheep is in lower doses or to increase LH is in lower doses. Now if the scientific studies would have shown that increasing GH or LH or reversing T negative feedback required only higher doses, then we wouldn't be talking now. Why? Because I understand that in most cases side-effects are dose dependent. In other words, the less dose, the less chance for negative side-effects although not always dependat on individual circumstance.

So keep in mind, that my hypothesis regarding baclofen as it relates to TRT or body building is based on much lower doses that typically required for the drugs intended purpose which means that there is less likely hood someone would experience drowsiness/sedation as compared to drug trails.

Now lets look at another theory I have that even further supports why baclofen may be perfect used in combination with T. ...Agression! The following link is on one such study that may support my theory.:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/ng1rqqxgue199wkg/

As we all know that use of T, especially in higher doses as used in body-building, typically promotes aggression. Although the link above compares the aggressions of childhood conduct disorder and normal subjects it still makes a case, in general, that baclofen may indeed balance out aggression which makes sense because it is a muscle relaxer.

Also, I realize that this particular study was with higher doses of baclofen. This didn't concern me as my criteria for entering into this research was not to eliminate T aggression, although I was quick to realize the possible positive benefit of combining a drug that promotes aggression with one, that in theory, is supposed to diminishes it.

If the use of baclofen combine with T can balance the emotions of the T user along with all the other positive indications, do you know the impact this will have on body building medicine?

I will try and post at a later date about why I believe the study with sheep, baclofen reverses T negative feedback, stands a good chance in proving true with humans and the many confusing scientific studies regarding the baclofen, LH, connection. Some show baclofen raises LH while others show it lowers LH. Could it be an attempt by science to skew the real picture to discourage such trails as i am about to embark on?

[zumper]

I'm taking Baclofen AKA Myorel (non-presrcribed drug in my country), for about six months at night for relaxation/sleep,didn't know about these benefits though and i am trying to restart from 8 months of HRT with 40 mg of Nolva /day now.I ' m waiting to see your bloodwork,really good news if it works.

[Jtay]

First let me say that you're fortunate to live in a country that provides you access to such meds without prescription. The irony is... here in the USA we are supposed to be the example of democracy, however, it seems as each year passes we are fast heading in the other direction.

With the FDA and many docs being in the hip pocket of big pharma, it seems as though every time a drug is discovered that can help, like l-dopa and GHB, they take it off the market and/or make it a prescription med so they can control it and prevent those who need it from benefiting from same.

Unfortunately, when your talking capitalism, it's typically all about profit, which means it can't be all about healing us. In fact, to heal us would be in direct opposition of capitalism as it would jeopardize profits. Now, i realize there are some good docs out there so I don't want to lump then all in the same boat. However many, especially those at the top of their class, are often courted by big pharma before they even get out of school. One of my friends is one of the leading doctors in the country in pain medicine and he was courted by big pharm in college. Now, he spend his time teaching and enjoying all expense paid vacations complements of big pharma. He once told me that on a per hour basis big pharma actually rewards him more than his profession

Anyway, another subject for another day. About your use of baclofen....

It does not surprise me that you are using it as a sleep aid. There are many studies supporting/confirming its use in this regard by taking a dose 30 +/- mg (if I remember correctly) before bedtime. Also, there are studies supporting its use as a diet pill, etc., etc..

Yes, I can see where you might be happy knowing that all this time you were getting a good dose of GH and didn't even know it not to mention it has probably helped in other areas as well such as your T program assuming personal experience duplicates the studies.

Nice to have you aboard. Please feel free to post anytime as should all others. This thread may have been started by me, however, I do not want to hog the stage (I do better in the background) but rather encourage those interested in this subject to exchange ideas and info so we can all learn accordingly.

Regards,

[Jtay]

Originally Posted by zumper

I'm taking Baclofen AKA Myorel (non-presrcribed drug in my country), for about six months at night for relaxation/sleep,didn't know about these benefits though and i am trying to restart from 8 months of HRT with 40 mg of Nolva /day now.I ' m waiting to see your bloodwork,really good news if it works.

My prior message was obviously in response to your post, however, I failed to post the quote.

Anyway, regarding same, can you tell me what country are you're from? I'm trying to locate reference on "Baclofen AKA Myorel"

Thanks

[zumper]

Yeah,I'm from Greece,and i have to say that i don't know if this happens only in USA(the need for prescription).But here we have no prescription on Testosterone,HCG.Nolva.Clomid,Proviron,antideepres sants,Baclofen,Atarax.I think we are exception among the other countries especially on testosterone medications and probably it will change.

As for GHB if it was ever available here for sure it would be With a prescription.Why should Baclofen has a prescription?It has no relation(to strength) with GHB or benzodiazepines which also act on GABA -B receptor..I can take even 4 tablets of 10mg and feel no or little effect.

[Jtay]

Originally Posted by zumper

Yeah,I'm from Greece,and i have to say that i don't know if this happens only in USA(the need for prescription).But here we have no prescription on Testosterone,HCG.Nolva.Clomid,Proviron,antideepres sants,Baclofen,Atarax.I think we are exception among the other countries especially on testosterone medications and probably it will change.

As for GHB if it was ever available here for sure it would be With a prescription.Why should Baclofen has a prescription?It has no relation(to strength) with GHB or benzodiazepines which also act on GABA -B receptor..I can take even 4 tablets of 10mg and feel no or little effect.

That's good to know. Our first report on baclofen..."I can take even 4 tablets of 10mg and feel no or little effect". Is 40mg the amount you take just before bedtime? Does it indeed help you sleep?

The following study suggests that 20-25mg before bedtime is also effective.

http://www.erj.ersjournals.com/cgi/reprint/8/2/230

"In conclusion, a small dose of the gaba agonist baclofen at night has been shown to increase total sleep time, prolong REM sleep and Stages 1 & 2 nonREM sleep, and reduce the time spent awake after sleep onset. "


Even more evidence of the "Magic Pill", but I'll reserve my opinion until after my tests.

Does anyone else have experiences with this drug? Please report all. experinces..pro or con.

Thanks

[Jtay]

Originally Posted by Naturdoc

If I'm not mistaken, Phenibut is an over the counter supplement that works simiarly to Baclofen.

Also, Naturedoc if you have more info on Phenibut, especially scientific studies, please post accordingly. Since it is similar to baclofen in structure it is worthy of further investigation.

Thanks, John

[zumper]

Originally Posted by Jtay

T

Even more evidence of the "Magic Pill", but I'll reserve my opinion until after my tests.


Thanks

When your bloodwork tests are about to come?I am very curious to know cause i am on the same boat as you-pct(restart) aftter TRT, Don't delay your bloodwork iif you can.
Pleese give attention to this-there a lot of guys wayting for this and first of all me .
Thanks.

[Jtay]

Originally Posted by zumper

When your bloodwork tests are about to come?I am very curious to know cause i am on the same boat as you-pct(restart) aftter TRT, Don't delay your bloodwork iif you can.
Pleese give attention to this-there a lot of guys wayting for this and first of all me .
Thanks.

I am well under way with my baseline labs and will report my baseline (starting point without bac or T) labs soon.

I am hopeful to begin baclofen next week. Then, I will run additional labs bi-weekly and report every 2 weeks on my progress or lack thereof.

Dependant on what happens with my LH results, I assume I will be able to begin T in the latter part of this month. We should know soon thereafter how T is effecting my LH.

Again, I will adhere to the recommended starting dose of 5mg 3x/d = 15mg/d although studies indicate that 20mg/d may be the best starting point relating to GH stimulation (see link below). The reason is simple....the directions say to begin with low dosage and increase dosage thereafter for the purpose of allowing one's body to get used to the medication. It would be prudent to adhere to this beginning protocol thereby not taking any unnecessary chances of a negative reaction to the med.

After one week @ 15mg/d (5mg every eight hours), I will increase my dose to 30mg/d (10mg every eight hours) for a subsequent week; After two weeks I will run additional labs (with bac, no T) to compare with my baseline labs (no bac, no T); Then I will begin TRT and will run labs after one week (with bac and T) to compare with prior labs; then again run labs after two weeks (with bac and T) to compare with prior labs at which time I will render a conclusion based on results and discussion.

Open to any suggestions.

[Jtay]

to clarify:

"After one week @ 15mg/d (5mg every eight hours), I will increase my dose to 30mg/d (10mg every eight hours) for a subsequent week; After two weeks I will run additional labs (with bac, no T) to compare with my baseline labs (no bac, no T);"

Second sentence "two weeks", I meant to say two total weeks. In other words, after one week @ 30mg/d, I will run labs (with bac, no T) and begin TRT and run more labs a week after that.

Also, forgot to post this new interesting link about GH dosage:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...5f0431cd9b16b4

[Jtay]

One of the more interesting links regarding anti-aging science:

http://www.muscimol.com/

Be sure and click on links at the bottom of the page as they are all also very interesting.

Oh, in regards to muscimol, it is a GABA A selective receptor agonist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscimol

It has been shown to increase LH however, to my knowledge, it is not available to the consumer but only to science for testing. Many think that GHB although mostly utilizing GABA B receptors also acted as a GABA A receptor agonist similar to that of muscimol which is maybe why GHB was addictive as muscimol also induces euphoria.

I'm sure many of you remember mushroom tea when you were young Muscimol is produced naturally in certain mushrooms.

It is interesting to note how there is a fine line between what makes you feel good and is bad for you, and what makes you feel good and is good for you. The latter of the two is what anti-aging medicine hopes to accomplish someday. The authors on the study of the aging primates clearly indicate that muscimol may have healing properties yet, because it can provide that dream state you may never get to take advantage as with GHB, L-dopa. etc., etc.

[Jtay]

Also, in regards to my upcoming trail with baclofen, we only hope that it increases LH. I say that because the main objective is to confirm or deny that baclofen stops or reverses T negative feedback with an added bonus that it also increases LH.

In other words, as long as LH stays the same and doesn't decrease as a result of T negative feedback, that's a major accomplishment. within itself as that would ensure T users that the little guys aren't getting any smaller as a result of T negative feedback.

The majority of the studies do confirm the GH increase, however, there are conflicting studies regarding the LH attributes of baclofen.

My theory on why this conflict may exist is that some of the older studies were with baclofen before newer delivery methods crossing the BBB were possibly incorporated in the drug. However, in my research of the drug, I must admit that this is highly speculative because I'm still not completely satisfied with some of the answers I've been getting as to how effectively baclofen crosses the BBB.

However, I tend to believe/hope that because it is widely accepted that baclofen increases GH and GH is sythesized in the anterior pituitary gland of which, is under the influence of the hypothalamus, that there is a good chance the baclofen studies concluding bac raises LH are correct ,as coincidentally GnRH of which is responsible for releasing FSH and LH is also under the influence of the hypothalamus.

Although there are many more complex factors involved IMO, the aforesaid, lends support to the hypothesis that bac may indeed increase LH and FSH or at the very least it's reasonable to conclude it effectively crosses the BBB otherwise, one would think it would not so effectively increase GH.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood-brain_barrier

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_pituitary

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_hormone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnrh

[Jtay]

Another animal study supporting the use of Bac to increase LH:

"The stimulation of GABAB receptors activates GnRH/luteinising hormone (LH) release, attenuates noradrenergic and β-endorphinergic tone but has no evident effect on the dopaminergic system."

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...6.2005.01276.x