Reverse T negative feedback

[Jtay]

Toady at 4:00 PM my personal Bac trial commenced. I will take Bac 15 mg/d (5 mg every eight hours) for one week and with Bac, I decided to go ahead and begin Preg 15 mg/d (5 mg every eight hours).

One reason I decided to go ahead and begin Preg with Bac is because I feel that Bac being a muscle relaxer with possible sedative side effects will be a good combo with Preg as Preg much like T tends to be an excitatory supplement ( a good balance, I hope). Also, I wanted to get a jump start on my increase in my natural production of T via Preg and a simple initial testing protocol as follows.

After one week, my nephew who is 25 with testosterone raging, will take a pregnenolone serum test with me for comparison. Assuming my gonads have not started shrinking at this time, while waiting on this test result, I will bump up my Bac to 30 mg/d (10 mg every eight hours) and my Preg to the same does. Then after week two, I will take another Preg test to see where I am and make adjustments accordingly. If my Preg is still low, I will bump up my Preg, but not my Bac because as it stands now, I do not intend to take more than 30 mg/d Bac as I desire to keep this drug at a low dose in hopes to avoid possible side effects but enough that will increase my HGH and hopefully prevent negative feedback.

If I am successful in raising my Preg level to optimal levels, then i will submit to the other tests such as LH, T, and HGH, to determine where I am and decide at that time necessary adjustments..

Fingers crossed!

PS: I will post later some more interesting comments.

[eeso]

Great!

Jtay could u possibly save a document file with your before-bac labs, and then add in your protocol and subsequent labs etc?

Then when it's all done it could be copy/pasted in a new thread to make it easily referenced, rather than people having to wade through 20 pages of this thread when it's finally complete.

Thanks

[gwynnsh]

Thanks for replying to my question on the forum concerning adrenal fatigue. You seem to be quite knowledgable on the subject of hormone abnormalities.You stated that I my have andropause/elevated estrogen/low testosterone. The doctor I was using to get the hormone test done never really said anything about rasing my cortisol levels but rather wanted me to take 3 supplements to get my estrogen levels back down and they were 1) Chrysin 2) Testralin and 3) Estrofactors. I took all 3 of them for about a month but I had to stop his online consultations due to his extremely high prices, although I do believe he was on the right track. I believe you may also be on the right track because the supplements that I'm taking right now (from Doctor Wilson's adrenal fatigue book) don't really seem to be helping me. If you look at my test results you will notice that my DHEA-S is also low. Wouldn't I need to supplement with DHEA or would it correct itself if I lowered the estradiol and thus regained the testosterone? (I'm still a little confused on how all this works) I recently read that in order to correct abnormal levels of Low Free Testosterone, High Estradiol and Mild Total Testosterone (Naturally) as in my case, one should: Take the following supplements: (1) Zinc - 50 mg per day (2) Acetyl L Carnitine 1000 to 2000 mg per day (3) Muira Pauma 850 mg per day (4) Chrysin 1500 mg per day (5) Peperine 10 mg per day (enhances chrysin absorption) (6) Quercetin 500 - 1000 mg per day
If the above supplements fail to increase free testosterone & lower excess estradiol, consider using prescription (aromatase inhibator) Anastrazole at very low dosage of .5 mg twice per week. Does any of this sound familier to you and do you think it's worth a try since the other supplements aren't really working? Also, what would you recommend I try based on the test results that I already have posted? Thanks again & I look forward to hearing back from you.

[Jtay]

Originally Posted by eeso

Great!

Jtay could u possibly save a document file with your before-bac labs, and then add in your protocol and subsequent labs etc?

Then when it's all done it could be copy/pasted in a new thread to make it easily referenced, rather than people having to wade through 20 pages of this thread when it's finally complete.

Thanks

Yes, it is in my plans to do this at some time in the near future. However, a little premature now.

[Jtay]

Originally Posted by gwynnsh

Thanks for replying to my question on the forum concerning adrenal fatigue. You seem to be quite knowledgable on the subject of hormone abnormalities.You stated that I my have andropause/elevated estrogen/low testosterone. The doctor I was using to get the hormone test done never really said anything about rasing my cortisol levels but rather wanted me to take 3 supplements to get my estrogen levels back down and they were 1) Chrysin 2) Testralin and 3) Estrofactors. I took all 3 of them for about a month but I had to stop his online consultations due to his extremely high prices, although I do believe he was on the right track. I believe you may also be on the right track because the supplements that I'm taking right now (from Doctor Wilson's adrenal fatigue book) don't really seem to be helping me. If you look at my test results you will notice that my DHEA-S is also low. Wouldn't I need to supplement with DHEA or would it correct itself if I lowered the estradiol and thus regained the testosterone? (I'm still a little confused on how all this works) I recently read that in order to correct abnormal levels of Low Free Testosterone, High Estradiol and Mild Total Testosterone (Naturally) as in my case, one should: Take the following supplements: (1) Zinc - 50 mg per day (2) Acetyl L Carnitine 1000 to 2000 mg per day (3) Muira Pauma 850 mg per day (4) Chrysin 1500 mg per day (5) Peperine 10 mg per day (enhances chrysin absorption) (6) Quercetin 500 - 1000 mg per day
If the above supplements fail to increase free testosterone & lower excess estradiol, consider using prescription (aromatase inhibator) Anastrazole at very low dosage of .5 mg twice per week. Does any of this sound familier to you and do you think it's worth a try since the other supplements aren't really working? Also, what would you recommend I try based on the test results that I already have posted? Thanks again & I look forward to hearing back from you.

Although I have heard of some of the OTC supplement protocols you mention it is a little more difficult to render an opinion regarding such protocols via scientific studies as there tends to be more research on prescription meds for obvious reasons. Therefore, I will abstain on an opinion regarding OTC supplementation however, I will be more than glad to share some of my knowledge regarding prescription meds as they may apply to your circumstance.

First, in furtherance of my prior post on the other thread, not only does your diurnal cortisol results, IMO, not support adrenal fatigue you should know that adrenal fatigue is most often associated with elevated levels of cortisol in opposition to normal declining diurnal patterns towards evening or night.

Second, as a general rule of thumb, elevated estrogen is not synonymous with elevated cortisol. Although, too complicated to explain why, generally speaking (meaning there are exceptions), elevated estrogen equates to non-elevated cortisol and vice versa, which in your case is another supporting factor against adrenal fatigue.

In regards to elevated levels of estrogen and less than optimal testosterone levels, this is often a result of estrogen's negative feedback relative to the Gnrh and subsequent reduction of sex hormones of which, I have discussed here on this thread. However, again, I am speaking in general terms and not specific to your particular situation, as I am not a medical doctor and do not intend for my general opinion to substitute for an opinion of a medical doctor.

My research indicates that there are two preferred ways to approach this:

1) Inhibiting estrogens hence, aromatase inhibitors or
2) utilizing estrogens which is cutting edge anti-aging medice still in development


In regards to number 1...Aromatase inhibitors such as Anastrozole and Letrozole have several supporting scientific studies confirming the safe use of such drugs to reduce estrogen levels while at the same time increasing LH and testosterone levels (sometimes substantially). Just be sure when using such drugs do so under the guidance of a medical doctor who is familiar with prescribing such drugs.

In regards to number 2....My personal trial here with Baclofen (for information purposes only) may indeed show that Bac could possibly reverse typical steroid hormone negative feedback of which, estrogen is a steroid hormone. If Bac someday proves to reverse negative feedback of steroid hormones, then a person with high estrogen levels could potentially utilize estrogen for sex hormone biosyhthesis with meds such as Bac, Naltrexone, Naloxone in lieu of blocking it with meds such as Anastrozole and Letrozole .

Also, in regards to opioid receptor antagonists naloxone and naltrexone, I can tell you there are ongoing studies that appear to be very promising relating to the potential of reversing Estrogen's negative feedback. In fact, I personally believe that this is the future of anti-aging medicine and not surprisingly, the GABA B receptor agonist, Baclofen, shares some characteristics to these two drugs.

In summary, if I were you, I would check with your doc for approval to stop most supplementation/drugs in order to let your body stabilize and clean out so-to-speak. IMO, most people take way too many meds/supplements which often results in more harm than good. Do all of the obvious things regarding eating and living correctly and ask your doc if he thinks a low dose trial with Anastrozole or Letrozole is right for you. Just be sure to take doses that won't drive your estrogen levels too low. Proper levels of Estrogen (IMO, above the 50% level) has many health benefits for men.

Also, I would monitor use of such meds via MVL's 24-hour urine test of which, can be ordered without a prescription.

[zkt]

Since pregnenolone is the adrenal precursor of testosterone, seems to me you are contaminating the results of your test by taking both Baclofen and pregnenolone during the test.

[zumper]

Just take only the Bac.In these doses won't be such sedating.
You have to see the results with the Bac only.
Preg is an hormone and the bet here is a restart without hormones.

[gwynnsh]

Have you heard of a product called AIFM (Aromatase Inhibator for men) that's a natural (non-prescription inhibitor? The details: AI for Men uses ATD, a natural steroidal aromatase inhibitor, that is better suited for men than the most commonly used AI’s like arimidex and letrozole which were designed for women. It provides adrenal and immune supports as well as cortisol suppression through the addition of Dehydroepiandrosterone. This product is designed for men only.
Sounds like it may actually help with my situation.

[eeso]

i agree - u should only take bac. Leave the preg alone. If u take anything other than bac then the entire experiment is contaminated and no one will give it much credit. If this works I want my doctor to see it and not see a massive flaw in the trial.

[Jtay]

ZKT, Zumper, EESO,

Yes, I realize my personal trial would be better served with a Bac only baseline test result before proceeding with the Bac/T (or other steroid hormone such as Preg) test.

However, as I stated in a prior post, my time is limited as I will leave for Brazil the first week in October and I hope to have a protocol of which I will follow during my 6-8 months there. That means I have less than tow months to try and sort this out. Therefore, I had to consider the most important thing to me which is...can I take exogenous T, Preg, Estrogen, or other steroid hormones without the typical negative feedback of same which is why I decided to go ahead and include Preg in my initial trial.

If Bac fails to prevent Preg negative feedback, then I will try T, then estrogen (my estrogen is also low) to see if Bac prevents negative feedback regarding same.

Rest assured, i feel the same as you. However, I see no way around it. Unlike a preliminary trial with Bac only, it should not take long to determine if Bac does, or does not, prevent or reverse T (steroid hormone) negative feedback.

Regards,

[zumper]

Originally Posted by Jtay

ZKT, Zumper, EESO,

Yes, I realize my personal trial would be better served with a Bac only baseline test result before proceeding with the Bac/T (or other steroid hormone such as Preg) test.

However, as I stated in a prior post, my time is limited as I will leave for Brazil the first week in October and I hope to have a protocol of which I will follow during my 6-8 months there. That means I have less than tow months to try and sort this out. Therefore, I had to consider the most important thing to me which is...can I take exogenous T, Preg, Estrogen, or other steroid hormones without the typical negative feedback of same which is why I decided to go ahead and include Preg in my initial trial.

If Bac fails to prevent Preg negative feedback, then I will try T, then estrogen (my estrogen is also low) to see if Bac prevents negative feedback regarding same.

Rest assured, i feel the same as you. However, I see no way around it. Unlike a preliminary trial with Bac only, it should not take long to determine if Bac does, or does not, prevent or reverse T (steroid hormone) negative feedback.

Regards,

It's simple my man.You should try the Bac only to see LH,FSH And your T values.So you can know, and be able to speak, about what this medication can do clearly.
Then..go to see about the negative feedback issues and such.
All of us wait for this.If is there a chance, for a medicine like Bac ,to replace the well-known used till now medicines and not just to be able take exogenous T and have a healthy LH.
The key is to have all our hormones natural.LH,FSH,GNRH And Testosterone..

[eeso]

Yes, I eagerly await this because I am borderline low test. I could potentially just take bac (if it works) and not even need to take anything else. All I need is a bit of a boost, but currently my only option is full on TRT.

Could u not take bac on its own for 1 month then have labs done, then take preg from then on?

[zkt]

You are shooting yourself in the foot bro. Your tests will be contaminated and no one will give your results credence. Get a baseline T, FSH, LH the best way you can- do the Baclofen and retest. Anyone who has taken statistics 101 knows not to mix up variables as you are intending to do.

[Jtay]

I wished it were as simple as I hoped it would be, but I should have known better. Actually, there is a more in-depth reason for my madness of which I'm not sure can be overcome within my short time-frame left here in the States.

As I have stated before, I and many scientists believe that an anti-aging medicine breakthrough will occur in the areas I have discussed here on this thread. In fact, a partial breakthrough has already occurred of which most here are unaware of with the opioid antagonist drugs, Naloxone, Naltrexone and Nalmefene which share commonality with Bac:

Most of hese drugs have already shown in numerous studies to increase LH and T: Here is a link to one such study:

http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...ract/8/10/1598

Therefore, the breakthrough that has occurred is that there are indeed drugs available that can naturally increase LH and T levels. However, the reason this is not widely publicized or known in the medical establishment is there is one piece of the puzzle that remains unsolved...and it's a big one that also many negatively effect Bac use.

The problem is, just about all of the drugs including Bac, decrease the body's ability to utilize dopamine. For those that don't know, dopamine is the main culprit pertaining to Ed/libido. As your body ability to process or manufacture dopamine diminishes thus so does your libido.

All one has to do is google dopamine and Bac and you will see that Bac increases dopamine in the brain because it diminishes effective utilization of same. Not unlike when your body becomes insulin resistant you have an increased amount of insulin in your system because your body has quit utilizing insulin effectively.

Therefore, with no intent to undermine the importance of a non-corrupted baseline test, I knew going into my personal Bac trial that I would have to overcome the aforementioned dopamine negative. My excitement that I had found an inexpensive drug that may mimic the effects of the much more expensive drugs named herein resulted in my posting prematurly certain aspects of my trial.

There currently is a race on with several scientists doing various studies trying to unlock this missing link as the LH/T link has already been unlocked. I am one such person in this race to find the missing link. Just about all agree that the missing link will probably be a result of combining several drugs, however, the naltrexone study suggest that it may be a time/dosing issue .

Therefore, my decision not to try Bac alone was knowing that yes, we stood a decent chance of success in raising LH/T but possibly at the expense of something much more important to me, libido. A combination of Bac and Preg seemed to be a good choice as Preg has been shown in some tests to mediate dopamine. However, to no surprise, while I can already see and feel a positive difference, my libido has indeed been diminished but still too early for definite conclusion.

One of the things that is now being tested in naltrexone is the dosing. If you take it as I am now raking Bac is has a negative effect on endorphines and Dopamine. However, if you take it in low doses at night then it has a complete opposite effect.

http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/index.htm.

Therefore, there is a chance that my spreading Bac throughout the day is actually encouraging the negative dopamone utilization (reduced libido) whereas, if I were to take it only one time at night, then it may give the body time to utilize the extra dopamine in my brain during the day which may actually increase libido. Yes, I know that the low dose naltrexone is mainly referring to endophines. However, if you study endorphines you will see that there is relation to dopamine as well.

So where do I go from here?

I will let you know. I am studying night and day to try and determine my next move. There are some very interesting things that I am considering.

Regards,

[Jtay]

Originally Posted by gwynnsh

Have you heard of a product called AIFM (Aromatase Inhibator for men) that's a natural (non-prescription inhibitor? The details: AI for Men uses ATD, a natural steroidal aromatase inhibitor, that is better suited for men than the most commonly used AI’s like arimidex and letrozole which were designed for women. It provides adrenal and immune supports as well as cortisol suppression through the addition of Dehydroepiandrosterone. This product is designed for men only.
Sounds like it may actually help with my situation.

I have not forgotten about you. I will post answer this week. My schedule is hectic right now.

[Jtay]

PS: One of my considerations is trying the low dose naltrexone as I happen to have a prescription of the 50mg tabs here with me. However, I would have to figure out a way to make 10-5mg portions out of each tab.

Endorphines (and dopamine) have long correlated to sexual performance. Naltrexone is already known to increase LH and T thus, it makes one wonder if you could get that benefit at night while asleep and the increased b endorphine (libido) benefit while awake. The best of both worlds maybe.

These docs/scientists may have come up with the anti-aging missing link without fully realizing it yet. It may be worth a try as when I tried Naltrexone before at recommended does it diminsihed my libido just as Bac seems to be doing now.

For those interested in anti-aging medicine, you really should read the link in my prior post on low dose Naltrexone as you will better understand just how close science really is to finding that missing link.

[Jtay]

Interesting article:

Look out, men: Testosterone is under attack

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20302363/

[Jtay]

Note:The below para states B-Endorphins can stimulate dopamine by inhibiting production of GABA because GABA normally inhibits dopamine. Remember, Baclofen is a GABA B receptor agonist which basically means it mimics GABA's actions in the B receptor. Remember, we had talked about GHB when I first began this thread? The beauty of GHB was that it did all the great things Bac can do and also stimulated dopamine, in lieu of reducing dopamine like Bac, which is why it became a drug of choice. People liked the results! Anyway, when you read the below para, it may very well be that the doctors/scientists in the link I gave you before regarding low dose naltrexone may have discovered the missing link to anti-aging. Hmmmmm....Take low dose Naltrexone at night to increase LH and T while you sleep, by the time you wake up the Naltrexone has worn off and you get a huge upregulation of B-Endorphine and resulting dopamine. If true, sounds like they in a way have duplicated the good results of GHB. I'll post the link again at the end of this post FYI. Open for discussion....Man is this stuff interesting!!!!


"Dopamine is a brain chemical (i.e., neurotransmitter) involved in reward and reinforcement processes, and the NAc is a brain region involved in mediating alcohol's positive reinforcing effects. β-Endorphine (B-EP) is produced in the arcuate nucleus of the hypothalamus (ArcN) by nerve cells (i.e., neurons) that extend to other brain regions, including the ventral tegmental area (VTA) and the NAc. β-EP can stimulate dopamine release in the NAc through two mechanisms. First, it can interfere with (i.e., inhibit) neurons in the VTA that produce gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), a neurotransmitter that normally inhibits the dopamine-producing neurons in the VTA. Inhibition of GABA production leads to increased dopamine production and release in the NAc. Second, β-EP can directly stimulate (i.e., excite) dopamine-producing neurons in the NAc. Alcohol stimulates β-EP release in both the VTA and NAc. Purple structures indicate excitatory mechanisms, and gold structures indicate inhibitory mechanisms."

SOURCE: Adapted from Jamensky and Gianoulakis 1997.

Source: Gianoulakis, C. Alcohol-seeking behavior: The roles of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis and the endogenous opioid system. Alcohol Health & Research World 22(3):202–210, 1998.

http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/index.htm

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us