Reverse T negative feedback

[Jtay]

I have my Bac, I have my T and still waiting on directlabs.com for pricing on FSH and GH 24-hr urine tests and Esoterix to see if they will shorten their extremely long one month turn-around-time (TAT) to at least two weeks.

The other lab, ARUP, has much better TATs (one- two weeks) but I will have to find and pay for a new doctor with hospital privileges and pay retail price for my labs.

Anyway, should get answers today and will post accordingly,

[Jtay]

Also, Quest Diagnostics has the FSH, LH, and Testosterone 24-hr urine tests. However, they don't offer the GH urine test.

Also, directlabs.com does not use them so I would have to pay retail through my current doctor which does use Quest.

Here are the tests FYI:

LH 24-hr urine test #10440
http://cas2.questdiagnostics.com/scr...&tmradio=title

FSH 24-hr urine test #10441
http://cas2.questdiagnostics.com/scr...&tmradio=title

Testosterone 24-hr urine test # 874
http://cas2.questdiagnostics.com/scr...&tmradio=title

[Jtay]

directlabs.com said they will have me quote on the FSH 24-hr urine and GH 24-hr urine tests
(via LabCorp, via Esoterix), tomorrow. I already received a quote on the LH 24-hr Urine of $69.

Also, I still have not heard back from Esoterix in regards to improving their TAT as their current one month TAT is about two weeks longer than industry standards. To give me further options in case Esoterix can't improve on their TAT, today, I requested my doctor give me a quote from Quest Diagnostics on the FSH, LH, & Testosterone 24 hr Urine tests. Quest has a 1-2 week TAT which is much better than Espterix, however, I expect it will come at a price as directlabs.com is not a client of Quest Diagnostics.

I am also trying to find out if all tests can be from the same 24-hr urine specimen or will I have to have one specimen for each test.

I should have all the answers tomorrow. . Either way, looks like I will have to use directlabs.com/LabCorp/ Esoterix for GH 24-hr Urine as I have yet to find another lab that provides this GH urine test.

Treading new ground here.....patience Jtay

[Jtay]

Simply ridiculous...

Quest prices:

LH = $267
FSH = $272
Testosterone = $250
E1,E2,E3 = $800

directlabs.com prices

LH = $69
FSH = about same as LH
GH = about same as LH
E1,E2,E3 = $150

I will know for sure the exact directlabs.com price tomorrow but you can already see the story developing here. Looks like directlabs.com is the answer. Also, Esoterix said they will reduce their TAT and also come up with the first 24-hour Urine hormone panel which will ultimately be available through LabCorp via Directlabs.com at wholesale price to the consumer or doctor.

Tell me someone is not making a profit on these tests. Looks like it will be around $1600 for Quest vs $400 for directlabs.com. Can you say mark-up? Now you know just part of the reason why the revolving door exists.

Simply incredible and sad too!

It's difficult, if not impossible, to act in the best interest of the patient when there are such incredible profits to be made on Labs, drugs, etc., etc.

[Jtay]

Here is an interesting study that helps make me believe Bac's potential impact on anti-aging and BB medicine could be bigger than anyone can imagine:

"These data indicate that the aspects of negative and positive effects of E(2) on gonadotropin secretion are ERalpha dependent and occur at the level of the hypothalamus and pituitary respectively. "

http://www.ihop-net.org/UniPub/iHOP/...?pmid=17065413

You may be asking what does this have to do with Bac or T?

Following is my hypotheses and if it's correct, Baclofen may even be more revolutionary than I originally thought......

Testosterone is a steroid hormone. Estradiol (E2)is a steroid hormone. Here is one of several studies that show positive/negative feedback occurring at the hypothalamus and pituitary. Bac has been shown to reverse T positive/negative feedback at the hypothalamus and pituitary. T is a steroid hormone. E2 is a steroid hormone. Could it be, if Bac reverses T negative feedback that same would apply to the other steroid hormones such as E2? I think so, because it's logical!

Do you understand the impact of this? Estrogen therapy is huge and the same problem exists with it ,that exists with TRT.....NEGATIVE FEEDBACK! Estrogen typically starts out as a positive influence increasing LH then rapidly turns negative and drives LH into the ground.

What does this mean to anti-aging medicine....it will be huge if true! For one example, in those cases where people have reduced estrogen levels, and there are many, one could actually start estrogen therapy to raise LH and T instead of TRT as the negative feedback would not exist.

Why might this be a benefit...one of many reasons is, it has been shown that estrogen's positive influence stimulates the P-450SSC which would help the sythesis from cholesterol to pregnenolone which would help the complete chain of events. However, if T negative feedback is also eliminated it may duplicate E's benefits as it may increase E then, the positive cycle continues unlike before when the first negative feedback occurs the complete process is interrupted. .

Someone with high estrogen/low T, could take T, or even something further up the chain such as pregnenolone until they balanced out. Someone with low estrogen/low T could take estrogen until they balanced out, the options would be numerous.

The one huge problem with anti-aging and body building medicine has always been the negative feedback. of steroid hormones. One med solves one problem only to create another problem and so on, and so on, and so on.

Folks, baclofen has the potential of being SOOOOOO BIGGGGG it's scary. If my personal trial works and my theories are correct and others try Bac with similar results word will spread like wildfire. Unfortunately, I don't think Big Pharma, their constituents are going to take kindly to this.

Then again, if Bac doesn't work...well we had fun trying

[Jtay]

Received all of my individual test prices today.

However, DL is now calculating a package price discount and will give me that tomorrow at which time, I will place my lab order and post this info accordingly.

I will pick up my jug on Friday. Esoterix said they can use only one urine specimen for the FSH, LH, GH...thank God! I will collect my 24-hr urine sample on Sunday and turn it in first thing Monday morning. It's my understanding that this works best as it allows plenty of time for shipping during the week.

LabCorp will perform the serum pregnenolone, bio T & E1,2,3 as Labcorp does not currently offer 24-hr urine on these tests, however, Esoterix assures me it wont be long. Also, labCorp will provide the 24-hr urine cortisol test.

Remember, all of the aforesaid initial labs are only my baseline labs of which we will compare with subsequent labs for Bac/T results.

[Jtay]

In my research I came across a lab named the Meridian Valley Lab (MVL).

Looks like Dr. Jonathan V. Wright who apparently is medical director of this lab is a world renowned anti-aging doc and author of several books on the subject.

"24-hour urinary steroid hormone profiles are widely used in clinical diagnostics. Recent developments of natural hormone replacement therapies, available OTC (pregenolone, DHEA, progesterone) and by prescription (Triple Estrogen, estriol, testosterone) have led to new applications for steroid hormone testing. Many clinicians served by MVL use urinary hormone profiles as an integral part of natural hormone replacement therapy, including diagnosis, dosage adjustment and monitoring."

"I prefer to use the 24-hour urine test, because nearly all hormones are secreted in 'bursts' and 'pulses' and a single blood draw or saliva collection (or even two or three of them) may not provide a representative sample."

Natural Hormone Replacement
by Jonathan V. Wright M.D. and John Morgenthaler

MVL works with anti-aging docs across the country who utilize their lab which offers comprehensive 24-hr urine steroid profiles or if a patient desires to work with Dr. Wright they can do that too.

I have yet to find any other lab that comes close. The list is too long as to the info they provide from 24-hour urine tests. Whether you are a health care professional or a patient, you need to review this guys web page as he is cutting edge anti-aging medicine/testing, IMHO.

His web-page link:

http://www.tahoma-clinic.com/

The MVL link. Click on the "Comprehensive Plus Hormone Profile" you wont believe what this 24-hr urine test offers:

http://meridianvalleylab.com/

[Jtay]

Great News!!!!

I spoke with Meridian Valley Labs today. They just came out with a more comprehensive 24hr urine hormone profile which includes HGH. It is called the.....

"Comprehensive Plus Hormone Profile with HGH"

This test is available for only $349.00 plus $10.00 shipping. Can you believe it?

To order all of the separate tests which are included in this one hormone profile would cost thousands of dollars. It's simply amazing.

That means all one needs to do is order this one hormone profile from MVL and their FSH and LH 24-hr urine tests from Direct labs and they're set to go. MVL does not yet offer the FSH and LH 24-hr urine tests.

http://meridianvalleylab.com/steroid_dept.html

[Jtay]

PS: Call MVL and ask them to e-mail you a data sheet.

I just received mine...Impressive !

[Jtay]

Due to testing protocol delays, I am seriously considering beginning my personal trial with Bac maybe as early as tomorrow. My thinking is ...

I have already paid a lot of money for a slew of serum tests of which I have all test results. The only reason I delayed my trial is when I learned that serum results are not always dependable and 24-hr urine results are typically much more reliable.

However, if I proceed with the MVL and Esoterix urine tests, I will have to wait another week for the jug (MVL only), then another 2 weeks for the results and I don't know that I need a definative baseline test for my initial trial when all I am really trying to determine is if T or other steroid hormones will cause negative feedback resulting in diminished LH levels while on Bac.

In fact, one of the hormones I'm most interested in is not only T, but Pregnenolone. Why? Because it is the first in the chain of all steroid hormones which is why it is called "The Mother of all Hormones" and it is cheap and readily available without prescription. It is synthesized from cholesterol and the P450 is responsible in main part for this complex process. See Link:

http://www.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking...-hormones.html

Pregnonolone is not studied much and never will be because it is not patentable and the doctors can't make much money from its use. However, a cholesterol test and a pregnenolone test will often show if your P450 is working properly or not. For example, if cholesterol is high and Preg is low, or vice versa, then the the P450 may indeed be malfunctioning. The P450 has been in shown in studies to be the root of andropause and menopause, due mainly to environmental factors known as endocrine disruptors that sometimes mimick estrogen.

Buy the book: "Our Stolen Future" by Theo Colborn, Dianne Dumanoski, John Peterson Myers

Basically if Preg is low then all of our other sex hormones will be out of balance. However, the problem with Preg is that it is a steroid hormone and will cause negative feedback just like all the other steroid hormones such as T. I have tried Preg before and my Gonads shrunk just as they did with T and I quit immediately. However, up unil I quit, Preg unlike T, quickly began turning my graying hair brown (with no falling hair), quickly increased my libido and increased my muscle strength because Preg increases T naturally and did away with my tinitus.

So one would have to think that it makes sense to start at the top of the chain with Preg and to balance Preg out, then test T to see if it is in optimum range which, in theory, it should be. If not, work down the chain until all hormones are balanced out and if necessary begin TRT.

So what does this have to do with my testing protocol?

Well I already know that my total cholesterol is high @ 234 mg/dl of which, LDL is high @ 154 mg/dl. My pregnenolone is low @ 22 ng/dl (normal <20-150 ng/dl) resulting in my less than optimal T levels, total @ 335 ng/dl and Free @ 16.4 pg/ml. Also, my serum LH is low @ 1.3 mIU/mL and serum FSH is low @ 1.5 mIU/mL. Note: I have many more results will publish later .
My simplistic/idiotic rational is since I can't find a Preg 24 hr urine test, I will go ahead and at least begin Bac and Preg (or T to be decided) and continue the blood test until Preg reaches optimal level, assuming my theory is correct regarding Bac, that it may stop or reverse negative feedback of all steroid hormones. I should know rather quickly as my gonads began to shrivel up just a few weeks after taking Preg last time.

In the meantime, I can monitor not only my cholesterol & Preg but LH and T as well which should still, in time, tell us what we need to know. For you BB, I'm not saying that I'm not going to try T, in fact, i have already purchased a good supply of T for this trial. However, as a prudent engineer, I just don't want to change the spark plugs when the coil may be the real problem.

Anyway, I have not made a determination yet on beginning with T or Preg. What I do know is I need to get started on Bac and then in a week decide on T or Preg. We will eventually get the results on T by hook or by crook. Either way, my results should tell a story by which reasonable assumptions can be made.

In a way, I am going against my conservative nature wanting to get started asap. However, I am leaving for Brazil in early October and will be there for six months. Where I will be, i will not have access to testing labs. So, for me, time is indeed of the essence and spending my time researching testing protocol was not figured in my original calculation when I first began this project.

Therefore, I have to work with what I got so to speak and I hope to determine my initial protocol before I leave.

For those wanting to feel young again, It would be a dream come true, to take one or two pills that cost pennies a day for a longer, more vibrant, life. For BB's it would be a dream come true to take one pill and pump up without worry of the negative feedback nightmare.

As I embark on this journey I remember the ole adage, "If It sounds too good to be true, it probably is", therefore, I'm prepared for disappointment. However, as an inventor of a very successful, simple, product, I am also well aware of the old adage, "Keep it simple stupid" meaning that answers in life are often very simple, it is people that are very complicated. Therefore, we stand a chance until we don't.

Stay tuned.....

[Jtay]

Toady at 4:00 PM my personal Bac trial commenced. I will take Bac 15 mg/d (5 mg every eight hours) for one week and with Bac, I decided to go ahead and begin Preg 15 mg/d (5 mg every eight hours).

One reason I decided to go ahead and begin Preg with Bac is because I feel that Bac being a muscle relaxer with possible sedative side effects will be a good combo with Preg as Preg much like T tends to be an excitatory supplement ( a good balance, I hope). Also, I wanted to get a jump start on my increase in my natural production of T via Preg and a simple initial testing protocol as follows.

After one week, my nephew who is 25 with testosterone raging, will take a pregnenolone serum test with me for comparison. Assuming my gonads have not started shrinking at this time, while waiting on this test result, I will bump up my Bac to 30 mg/d (10 mg every eight hours) and my Preg to the same does. Then after week two, I will take another Preg test to see where I am and make adjustments accordingly. If my Preg is still low, I will bump up my Preg, but not my Bac because as it stands now, I do not intend to take more than 30 mg/d Bac as I desire to keep this drug at a low dose in hopes to avoid possible side effects but enough that will increase my HGH and hopefully prevent negative feedback.

If I am successful in raising my Preg level to optimal levels, then i will submit to the other tests such as LH, T, and HGH, to determine where I am and decide at that time necessary adjustments..

Fingers crossed!

PS: I will post later some more interesting comments.

[eeso]

Great!

Jtay could u possibly save a document file with your before-bac labs, and then add in your protocol and subsequent labs etc?

Then when it's all done it could be copy/pasted in a new thread to make it easily referenced, rather than people having to wade through 20 pages of this thread when it's finally complete.

Thanks

[gwynnsh]

Thanks for replying to my question on the forum concerning adrenal fatigue. You seem to be quite knowledgable on the subject of hormone abnormalities.You stated that I my have andropause/elevated estrogen/low testosterone. The doctor I was using to get the hormone test done never really said anything about rasing my cortisol levels but rather wanted me to take 3 supplements to get my estrogen levels back down and they were 1) Chrysin 2) Testralin and 3) Estrofactors. I took all 3 of them for about a month but I had to stop his online consultations due to his extremely high prices, although I do believe he was on the right track. I believe you may also be on the right track because the supplements that I'm taking right now (from Doctor Wilson's adrenal fatigue book) don't really seem to be helping me. If you look at my test results you will notice that my DHEA-S is also low. Wouldn't I need to supplement with DHEA or would it correct itself if I lowered the estradiol and thus regained the testosterone? (I'm still a little confused on how all this works) I recently read that in order to correct abnormal levels of Low Free Testosterone, High Estradiol and Mild Total Testosterone (Naturally) as in my case, one should: Take the following supplements: (1) Zinc - 50 mg per day (2) Acetyl L Carnitine 1000 to 2000 mg per day (3) Muira Pauma 850 mg per day (4) Chrysin 1500 mg per day (5) Peperine 10 mg per day (enhances chrysin absorption) (6) Quercetin 500 - 1000 mg per day
If the above supplements fail to increase free testosterone & lower excess estradiol, consider using prescription (aromatase inhibator) Anastrazole at very low dosage of .5 mg twice per week. Does any of this sound familier to you and do you think it's worth a try since the other supplements aren't really working? Also, what would you recommend I try based on the test results that I already have posted? Thanks again & I look forward to hearing back from you.

[Jtay]

Originally Posted by eeso

Great!

Jtay could u possibly save a document file with your before-bac labs, and then add in your protocol and subsequent labs etc?

Then when it's all done it could be copy/pasted in a new thread to make it easily referenced, rather than people having to wade through 20 pages of this thread when it's finally complete.

Thanks

Yes, it is in my plans to do this at some time in the near future. However, a little premature now.

[Jtay]

Originally Posted by gwynnsh

Thanks for replying to my question on the forum concerning adrenal fatigue. You seem to be quite knowledgable on the subject of hormone abnormalities.You stated that I my have andropause/elevated estrogen/low testosterone. The doctor I was using to get the hormone test done never really said anything about rasing my cortisol levels but rather wanted me to take 3 supplements to get my estrogen levels back down and they were 1) Chrysin 2) Testralin and 3) Estrofactors. I took all 3 of them for about a month but I had to stop his online consultations due to his extremely high prices, although I do believe he was on the right track. I believe you may also be on the right track because the supplements that I'm taking right now (from Doctor Wilson's adrenal fatigue book) don't really seem to be helping me. If you look at my test results you will notice that my DHEA-S is also low. Wouldn't I need to supplement with DHEA or would it correct itself if I lowered the estradiol and thus regained the testosterone? (I'm still a little confused on how all this works) I recently read that in order to correct abnormal levels of Low Free Testosterone, High Estradiol and Mild Total Testosterone (Naturally) as in my case, one should: Take the following supplements: (1) Zinc - 50 mg per day (2) Acetyl L Carnitine 1000 to 2000 mg per day (3) Muira Pauma 850 mg per day (4) Chrysin 1500 mg per day (5) Peperine 10 mg per day (enhances chrysin absorption) (6) Quercetin 500 - 1000 mg per day
If the above supplements fail to increase free testosterone & lower excess estradiol, consider using prescription (aromatase inhibator) Anastrazole at very low dosage of .5 mg twice per week. Does any of this sound familier to you and do you think it's worth a try since the other supplements aren't really working? Also, what would you recommend I try based on the test results that I already have posted? Thanks again & I look forward to hearing back from you.

Although I have heard of some of the OTC supplement protocols you mention it is a little more difficult to render an opinion regarding such protocols via scientific studies as there tends to be more research on prescription meds for obvious reasons. Therefore, I will abstain on an opinion regarding OTC supplementation however, I will be more than glad to share some of my knowledge regarding prescription meds as they may apply to your circumstance.

First, in furtherance of my prior post on the other thread, not only does your diurnal cortisol results, IMO, not support adrenal fatigue you should know that adrenal fatigue is most often associated with elevated levels of cortisol in opposition to normal declining diurnal patterns towards evening or night.

Second, as a general rule of thumb, elevated estrogen is not synonymous with elevated cortisol. Although, too complicated to explain why, generally speaking (meaning there are exceptions), elevated estrogen equates to non-elevated cortisol and vice versa, which in your case is another supporting factor against adrenal fatigue.

In regards to elevated levels of estrogen and less than optimal testosterone levels, this is often a result of estrogen's negative feedback relative to the Gnrh and subsequent reduction of sex hormones of which, I have discussed here on this thread. However, again, I am speaking in general terms and not specific to your particular situation, as I am not a medical doctor and do not intend for my general opinion to substitute for an opinion of a medical doctor.

My research indicates that there are two preferred ways to approach this:

1) Inhibiting estrogens hence, aromatase inhibitors or
2) utilizing estrogens which is cutting edge anti-aging medice still in development


In regards to number 1...Aromatase inhibitors such as Anastrozole and Letrozole have several supporting scientific studies confirming the safe use of such drugs to reduce estrogen levels while at the same time increasing LH and testosterone levels (sometimes substantially). Just be sure when using such drugs do so under the guidance of a medical doctor who is familiar with prescribing such drugs.

In regards to number 2....My personal trial here with Baclofen (for information purposes only) may indeed show that Bac could possibly reverse typical steroid hormone negative feedback of which, estrogen is a steroid hormone. If Bac someday proves to reverse negative feedback of steroid hormones, then a person with high estrogen levels could potentially utilize estrogen for sex hormone biosyhthesis with meds such as Bac, Naltrexone, Naloxone in lieu of blocking it with meds such as Anastrozole and Letrozole .

Also, in regards to opioid receptor antagonists naloxone and naltrexone, I can tell you there are ongoing studies that appear to be very promising relating to the potential of reversing Estrogen's negative feedback. In fact, I personally believe that this is the future of anti-aging medicine and not surprisingly, the GABA B receptor agonist, Baclofen, shares some characteristics to these two drugs.

In summary, if I were you, I would check with your doc for approval to stop most supplementation/drugs in order to let your body stabilize and clean out so-to-speak. IMO, most people take way too many meds/supplements which often results in more harm than good. Do all of the obvious things regarding eating and living correctly and ask your doc if he thinks a low dose trial with Anastrozole or Letrozole is right for you. Just be sure to take doses that won't drive your estrogen levels too low. Proper levels of Estrogen (IMO, above the 50% level) has many health benefits for men.

Also, I would monitor use of such meds via MVL's 24-hour urine test of which, can be ordered without a prescription.