Reverse T negative feedback

[Jtay]

I made a decision.

Stopped my Bac trial yesterday as it was obvious to me where my libido was heading. Already this morning woke up with a harder erection although I'm sure it will be a couple of days before I return to normal. FYI, normal to me was nothing to brag about, but better than nothing as I have low libido due to Andropause as many here on this forum do which is one of several reasons I'm searching for answers.

Anyway, it made sense to me that because the low dose naltrexone (LDN) doctors have already made a case using LDN with a recommended dose, why should I spend time I don't currently have to see if I can duplicate their efforts with Bac of which I have no idea regarding one time dosing before bed or if it will even work?

Therefore, here I go with my LDN personal trail which will begin tonight. I already had the 50mg tabs from a prior failed experiment ( i was using Revia-Naltrexone 25mg/d) which resulted in reduced libido as with Bac. However, as I pointed out before, if their science is correct and I get an upregulation of B-ED then I should also get an increase in libido with an increase in LH/T.

I just completed separating my 50 mg tabs into 10 -# 3 caps. I figure with the amount lost in transfer that it should put me around the 4.5 mg/d dose. Believe it or not the little 50mg tab turns out to be more powder than one would think. It filled 10- #3 caps about 1/4 full. I did not use a filler but instead just left air space in the cap which I think is better if you're doing it yourself as fillers require equal distribution which can be difficult without the correct lab equipment.

So here we go again.......

However, the million dollar question remains.....If LDN does work will Bac, which is much less expensive, work as well? I think there is a chance for reasons I have previously stated. However, another test for another day as I'll be more than happy to pay the extra price for LDN if it works. If some curious sole decides to try Bac, a single low does before bed seems like it would have a better chance of working knowing what we now know with LDN.


Questions or comments?

[zumper]

Originally Posted by Jtay

I made a decision.

Stopped my Bac trial yesterday as it was obvious to me where my libido was heading. Already this morning woke up with a harder erection although I'm sure it will be a couple of days before I return to normal. FYI, normal to me was nothing to brag about, but better than nothing as I have low libido due to Andropause as many here on this forum do which is one of several reasons I'm searching for answers.

Anyway, it made sense to me that because the low dose naltrexone (LDN) doctors have already made a case using LDN with a recommended dose, why should I spend time I don't currently have to see if I can duplicate their efforts with Bac of which I have no idea regarding one time dosing before bed or if it will even work?

Therefore, here I go with my LDN personal trail which will begin tonight. I already had the 50mg tabs from a prior failed experiment ( i was using Revia-Naltrexone 25mg/d) which resulted in reduced libido as with Bac. However, as I pointed out before, if their science is correct and I get an upregulation of B-ED then I should also get an increase in libido with an increase in LH/T.

I just completed separating my 50 mg tabs into 10 -# 3 caps. I figure with the amount lost in transfer that it should put me around the 4.5 mg/d dose. Believe it or not the little 50mg tab turns out to be more powder than one would think. It filled 10- #3 caps about 1/4 full. I did not use a filler but instead just left air space in the cap which I think is better if you're doing it yourself as fillers require equal distribution which can be difficult without the correct lab equipment.

So here we go again.......

However, the million dollar question remains.....If LDN does work will Bac, which is much less expensive, work as well? I think there is a chance for reasons I have previously stated. However, another test for another day as I'll be more than happy to pay the extra price for LDN if it works. If some curious sole decides to try Bac, a single low does before bed seems like it would have a better chance of working knowing what we now know with LDN.


Questions or comments?

Since Bac is cheaper and Naltr. has evidence to elevate LH while Bac no,I insist as hell to try ONLY the bac cause if it works something new will come into
the scene.
You do not want to kick the whole sticky off.

[Jtay]

Originally Posted by zumper

Since Bac is cheaper and Naltr. has evidence to elevate LH while Bac no,I insist as hell to try ONLY the bac cause if it works something new will come into
the scene.
You do not want to kick the whole sticky off.

Zumper,

First, my comment that LDN was expensive was in comparison to Bac. Bac costs about half as much as LDN per day, however, LDN is still only .75-1.00 per day which compared to other anti-aging meds is still relatively cheap. Thus, cost of either drug I don't think should be a deciding factor.

Second, when I began posting here about Bac and some of the other drugs I have studied such as naltrexone, I was still unaware of the possible LDN connection with anti-aging medicine as i was just beginning to study their claims. It was not until I began experiencing some immediate libido issues on my bac trial that I stayed up night and day learning how I might can achieve the benefits of such drugs without the negatives such as decreased libido. Then as I learned more about LDN, it was if a light bulb had come on.

These people without knowing it had possibly come up with a dosing program that enabled the user to reap only the positives of naltrexone with no negatives which now made its application in the anti-aging field possible for the first time, assuming the thousands of people who swear by it are telling the truth which brings me to my next point.

As I have already established in prior posts, Bac and Naltrexone share some similarities including, but not limited to, they both have been shown effective in treating achohol dependency. However, one should not forget they are two different classified drugs, Naltrexone being an opioid receptor antagonist, and Baclofen being a GABA B agonist. Therefore, although sharing similar characteristics/results in animal/human studies, they have some obvious differences such as, Bac's studies in regards to raising LH and FSH levels are mixed with mixed supporting scientific evidence as to how Bac may or may not accomplish same. In contrast, most studies agree that opioid antagonists, such as Naltrexone, raise LH levels and there are plenty of scientific supporting studies that prove this, as B-endorphins in large part block LH release and opioid antagonists prevent B-endorphines from doing this thereby increasing LH and T.

Now think about what your asking me to do:

1) I became aware during my Bac trial (not before) that LDN does exactly what I was trying to accomplish with Bac. Now I don't like to Bac down (excuse the pun but I'm not going to look a possible gift horse in the mouth either. Sure it would have been nice to achieve success with Bac, but hey its all about helping people and my hats off to the Docs who discovered LDN if it truly works.

2) LDN has thousands of people who will vouch for its healing capabilities regarding numerous diseases and the numbers are growing compared to ZIP for Bac in anti-aging with exception of me, if I continued and achieved success with my trial. If LDN can benefit the growing list of diseases that many think it can, think what that will mean to anti-aging medicine and even if my Bac trial had proven successful, do you really think that people here would try Bac on one testimonial in lieu of LDN with thousands of testimonials?

3) LDN although in relation to Bac may be expensive, it is not expensive as compared to other meds and surely not that expensive if it does what many think it can do.

4) Opiod antagonists have consistent scientific studies that show success in raising LH/T and to a lesser extent FSH compared to Bac's mixed studies with minimal supporting evidence as to how it may, or may not, work in raising LH/FSH and T levels.

In summary, why re-invent the wheel with Bac, a drug that is virtually unproven, when LDN sounds so promising? Sure, my Bac trial would have been a great experiment if LDN had not come to my/our attention. Why continue to test it? Even if my test would have proven successful, knowing what I know now and assuming LDN really works, I would still choose LDN as it has obvious benefits, the main one being....I can make complete and total sense of how and why LDN may indeed work as compared to Bac which has some unknowns.

Do you know how long it would take just to determine the correct dosage of Bac and to determine if it had the same results as LDN? I already made the first mistake which was to spread it out over the day instead of taking one dose at night. How many more trial and errors would I have to go through to determine the correct dose? I was willing to be a Guinea pig when I thought nothing else existed, however, I'm not so willing now and I would think that you and the others here understand that.

As far as LDN not being new to this forum as you compared it to my trial with Bac. To my knowledge, I don't know of anyone else talking about LDN on this thread and how it may apply to anti-aging and bodybuilding. In fact, the doctors who discovered LDN, to my knowledge, aren't even aware of its potential use in anti-aging/BB medicine. Maybe I'm wrong, but it sure appears that I may be the first to make that connection via my in-depth research and knowledge in these fields.

In closing, in case you and the others haven't figured it out by now, IMHO, LDN has the potential of being more revolutionary to anti-aging and body building medicine than Bac, and that is something to get excited about! The key to longevity may have indeed been discovered with LDN, I just wish I was the one to discover it Sure I may have connected the dots which I think would be interesting to people here. It's not often others get to participate first hand in important research. However, don't ever assume that I live or die by the sticky, as my time here is only as good as my welcome.

[Jtay]

LDN should be readily available. I bought my naltrexone (Revia) 50 mg tabs while in Brazil last year.

http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/ind...n_I_obtain_LDN

[Jtay]

I almost hate to post 1st day results, as such results are sometimes not reliable. Therefore, take the following good news with caution as results may/could vary with time.

I experienced a substantial increase in my libido this morning. When I say substantial, I mean similar to when I was in my twenties.....I could not believe it and I'm still a little shocked. Also, my semen volume was increased from very little to respectable, and my privates in general seem to be more pronounced, however, not yet like my twenties. Seriously....it seemed as just the slightest thought of something sensual or just the slightest touch would make it rock hard. In fact, my erection lasted so long that I began to worry. However, my worry soon passed, as I just had forgotten what normal was as I haven't been normal in so long.

Now I realize this could be the placebo effect as such incredible results with first day of usage seem very suspect. However, understanding the hypothesis that LDN substantially increases B-endorphines and knwoing the science that B-endorphines increase dopamine and dopamone increases libido makes me cautiously optimistic that we may be on to something here.

While I understand libido issues are not the only issue here, the reason it is important, is libido will confirm to some extent that LDN may be working exactly the way I believe it should regarding other factors ie, if I have increased semen which is a result of increased FSH, and my gonads seem larger, then my LH has probably increased overnight as well, etc., etc.

Anyway, I don't want to get too excited until more time has passed and you shouldn't either.

Patience Jtay...I probably should have waited to post. However, interesting nevertheless.

[Jtay]

PS: I forgot to say that I went back and divided one 50mg naltrexone tab into 12 caps instead of 10 caps as O originally posted. Probably about 4 mg for each capsule after transfer loss. The reason is...I wanted to make sure I didn't exceed the max recommended dose of 4.5 mg if I was a little off here or there, and there really is not much lost during transfer. See below link:

"The therapeutic dosage range for LDN is from 1.75mg to 4.5mg every night."

http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/ind..._and_frequency

Also, regarding cost...I paid US$150 (+/-) in Brazil last year for thirty 50 mg tabs. Thirty 50mg tabs makes 360, 4 (+/-) mg capsules (30 x 12 = 360). $150 divided by 360 = .42 cents per day...not bad! Therefore, I guess it depends on where you buy Naltrexone and if you elect to divide the tabs into smaller portions yourself or buy the smaller caps direct from the pharmacy. Obviously, if you do the work yourself, you will save money but it may not be worth the hassle.

[eeso]

I'm pretty much lost in this thread now, but I just wanted to mention that dopamine/seratonin drugs are commonly used in Australia for erectile dysfunction and also for guys with premature ejaculation. We have friggin commercials on the radio every 30seconds for a group called "A.M.I" who sells the stuff at hideous markup.

[zkt]

What specifically do they use ?

[Matt Muscle]

Originally Posted by eeso

I'm pretty much lost in this thread now, but I just wanted to mention that dopamine/seratonin drugs are commonly used in Australia for erectile dysfunction and also for guys with premature ejaculation. We have friggin commercials on the radio every 30seconds for a group called "A.M.I" who sells the stuff at hideous markup.

I think the drug they use at "A.M.I" is Apomorphine( a type of dopamine agonist), via nasel spray, correct?
Naltrexone sounds like a very different medication to that.
Its a common side effect of SSRI's to delay ejaculation.

I'm enjoying your posts Jtay. Very interested to hear what evolves with your trial of LDN.

[zumper]

He should start a new thread with naltrexone,this is related to Baclofen mostly.

[Jtay]

Thanks, I hope we can all learn something beneficial from this

Update:

Although my libido has tamed down compared to my first morning, I still have a definite increase in libido and think I feel a little better as well. I say "think" because I believe that I am having peaks and valleys which makes sense in looking at the LDN web page:

"Because LDN blocks opioid receptors throughout the body for three or four hours, people using medicine that is an opioid agonist, i.e. narcotic medication — such as Ultram (tramadol), morphine, Percocet, Duragesic patch or codeine-containing medication — should not take LDN until such medicine is completely out of one's system. "

For example, I hypothesize, when I wake in the morning I'm like a wild tiger and my gonads are hanging low and feel nice and plump. This makes sense, as I have increased my LH and T overnight(3-4 hours) while my B-endorphines (B-Ed) are inhibited. As I wake, I experience the upregulation in B-Ed and dopamine as the LDN wears off and my B-Ed surge takes place. However, as the day progresses my B-Ed surge inhibits my LH/T production and my gonads begin to shrink again. As the day progresses further my sexual drive begins to taper off as my B-ED surge tapers off waiting for the next go-around.

This is how it seems to be happening with me. So I've been thinking.......If the LDN inhibition of B-Ed lasts 3-4 hours then it seems like we can repeat the process 3 x a day to get a more steady supply of LH/T and Dopamine.

For example, if I take LDN every 8 hours that would allow the B-Ed inhibition of 3-4 hours to take place thereby raising LH/T for that same time period and the subsequent 3-4 hours for the B-Ed/Dopamine surge to rake place (8-hours total) . Then, repeat the process over hopefully getting a more equal supply of LH/T/Dopamine throughoutt the day and eliminating the peaks and valleys assuming that I'm not imagining all of this.

I know, I know, many will say to this approach...isn't that what you tried with Baclofen? Yes, but remember my short trial with Bac was in much larger doses and I had no idea, unlike with LDN, of how long my Bac dose would/would not effect me.

Again, I am basing the aforesaid 3x day hypothesis off of LDN's conclusion that the inhibition of B-Ed lasts 3-4 hours and I'm assuming that a 3-4 hour B-Ed surge thereafter is adequate. Hence, block B-Ed/dopamine and raise LH/T for 3-4 hours then, raise B-Ed/dopamine and block LH/T for the next 3-4 hours and so on, and so on. Does this make sense?

I like the fact others are beginning to chime in now. I had/have no intentions of homesteading this thread and prefer feedback pro, or con, as many heads are better than one. In fact, because of the comments by Zumper and others, of which I appreciate, I am not too quick to forget about the benefits of Bac (like the GH benefit) and may revisit Bac someday in the future due to those comments.

[Jtay]

For clarification purposes, in regards to my thoughts on a possible different dosing schedule regarding my LDN trial, when I said the word "block" that seems a little too final.

"Hence, block B-Ed/dopamine and raise LH/T for 3-4 hours then, raise B-Ed/dopamine and block LH/T for the next 3-4 hours and so on, and so on. Does this make sense?"

My theory/hope is that there will be a fading in and out phase, in lieu of an outright block, which makes more sense. In other words, what I meant to convey was.... B-Ed/dopamine becomes inhibited as a result of LDN, raisng LH/T for 3-4 hours then, LDN wears off raising B-Ed/dopamine and inhibiting LH/T for 3-4 hours.


"Block" was just a bad choice of words.

Now I need to make a decision. My options:

1) stay with the one low dose to see if the peaks and valleys level off as it is still very early in the trial.

2) change to two low doses per day (every 12 hours)

3) change to three low doses per day.

I truly believe that LDN is working, although too early to tell for sure. What I do know is that I generally feel better with much better libido as compared to before LDN. Therefore, I may need to massage the dosing schedule a little bit to see if the P's & V's will smooth out. Man, if could get the almost euphoric feeling I get in the mornings, all day long......wow!
It's a great thought and maybe even possible

[Jtay]

As far as Zumper's rec for a new thread relating specifically to LDN...I'm for anything anyone wants to do. It will really be up to HeadDoc I guess. Again anything you guys want to do and I'm there or here. I'm just a guest here and appreciate the hard work by those who keep this forum going.

No matter where we post, it looks as though the LDN trial will be very interesting and I remain encouraged. .

[The_Skeptic]

Originally Posted by Jtay

As far as Zumper's rec for a new thread relating specifically to LDN...I'm for anything anyone wants to do. It will really be up to HeadDoc I guess. Again anything you guys want to do and I'm there or here. I'm just a guest here and appreciate the hard work by those who keep this forum going.

No matter where we post, it looks as though the LDN trial will be very interesting and I remain encouraged. .

Man this thread has more curve balls than Nolan Ryan's career. I suggest you start a whole new thread with the words Los Dose Naltrexone in the title and LDN in parenthesis next to it.

I ended ordering some Bac online because it was very cheap. I'm not sure if I will take it. I will conduct more research on it before I make a decision.

[zkt]

It didnt do much for me either on or off label use. Get a better hardon with trazodone . LOL
are you using 3g Chemist ?
rhey have Naltrexone
might have mentioned that already
maybe I should have gotten some Aricept too