Reverse T negative feedback

[Jtay]

Could this old drug find be revolutionary to bodybuilding and anti-aging medicine?

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ll/141/11/3940

What exactly is Baclofen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baclofen

Yes, I know, the study was referring to intrathecal Baclofen. However, Baclofen is available in pill form for a very low cost of around .20 - .40 per tablet...very cheap! Here in the USA named Lioresal.

Ok, so does the pill form cross the BBB:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus

The only hitch, I can't find any human studies. Anyone here tried it in their program in lieu of HCG?

Man, if this works in humans and eliminates the T Negative feedback this will be BIG NEWS.

My doctor will easily prescribe it because it is considered to be a "safe" drug. Just told him my muscles were stiff .

Also, wrote to Swale to get his thoughts.

If this is old news sorry as I don't have much time to monitor/research this board. However, I don't think it is widely known yet. If anyone tries it be sure to report your results. I'm under the impression that the Baclofen muscle relax characteristics counterbalances the T aggressiveness thus, you can increase T and still have the euphoria and build mass without the desire to kill - Lol!

Comments?

[Jtay]

Sorry, here is the first link again. Don't know why it didn't work the first time:

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ll/141/11/3940

[Jtay]

The news just seems to be getting better and better:

Also looks like Baclofen raises IGF-I and it appears this study was with the pills. Ok, let me see,,,,so it raises LH, FSH, Testosterone, IGF-I naturally and you can also use testosterone with no negative feedback and all this for pennies a pill. Someone help me here.....Am I dreaming or what?

Here is another study....

And there are more

http://jcp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/46/4/476

[Jtay]

Unless the good doctor Swales convinces me otherwise, I think my initial protocol will be...

10 mg/d for 30 days. Then get my LH and FSH blood test. (I already have my baseline) Because LH and FSH tend to pulsate I will do three tests of each 30 minutes apart and average. Assuming the Baclofen works, I will focus on my LH with FSH to be considered. I want my LH to be like that of a 19 year old (3.6-5.3 mIU/mL).

After test results, if my LH needs to be higher, then I will bump up my Baclofen dose accordingly. Assuming I achieve my optimal LH level, then, I will determine if I need to begin Androgel. Obviously, if my T is not optimal when/if I reach my optimal LH level then, I will begin Androgel.

[Jtay]

FYI...Here in the USA, CVS only carries the generic. However, here is a better pricing example for generic, or brand, name and where I buy my scripts:

http://www.canadadrugs.com/search.ph...esal&x=25&y=11

[Jtay]

It just keeps getting better and better:

"Our results demonstrated that, in our experimental model, neither concentration affected previous neuronal survival. Considering the above results, we can conclude that at the used concentrations, this drug is safe and its clinical use should be encouraged."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...cc21a85a3218b4

Also, no ED side effects like SERMS.

For photos of the pill, manufacturers, and more info:

http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/DVH/Uses/0,3915,64|Lioresal,00.html#howToTake

[zkt]

I have never found Baclofen to worth anything at all but I took it for back pain.
Intrestingn study alrite The questionably parts are the doseage and species differences. Hope you continue researching this. Meanwhile I found a bottle of Baclofen in the back of a drawer, I`ll let you know

[Jtay]

Yes, please let me know. I will start next week and will post my initial results within 2-4 weeks. The more research, the more this seems like "The Magic Pill"... who said it didn't exist?

I am just beyond belief that the anti-aging doc's were not aware of these studies. I believe their lack of knowledge about this drug is because this is a relatively older drug and the patents have run out ( which is why it's so cheap). The anti-aging doc's are always looking for the next great thing but failed to look at the older drugs and studies how they might apply to anti-aging, I have been researching for several years and countless hours and just now discovered it. My doc is about to jump through the roof with the info I gave him. I have already let Swale know as well. I'm sure word will travel fast and we will start getting people to report their labs to confirm or deny the studies.

Anyway, this drug must have gotten overlooked in the process and maybe by intent. Imagine, If this drug does what science says/implies it can do, the other high cost drugs that it may hurt such as HGH, IGF-I , HMG and the more moderately priced drugs like T and HCG.

It makes me wonder if I'm not shooting myself in the foot here because if this catches on like I suspect it will, then they may pull it from the market or put up a fight to have it pulled or made illegal.

For patients with Andropause (not body builders), there is a possibility that one may not even need T as this drug is supposed to increase T with LH increase.

While I realize much of this is just speculation (as my research is ongoing) and I probably should contain my excitement, It is difficult to do so as there is much more that I know and have not reported here about the qualities/studies regarding this drug.

Therefore, to those Doc's who might hammer me for sticking my neck out there, excuse my excitement as I agree that more research and personal trails need to occur before we can come to a conclusion.

Also, for those already on T be careful. I would substantially reduce your T before trying this drug as it could shoot your T through the roof as your LH comes back to life. You can always bump your T back up again, but IMHO, it is better to not gamble until your labs tell the story. Also, I would not do HCG with this drug. HCG mimics LH, this drug increases the real LH which means you can monitor it with your LH labs unlike HCG and no needle!

[zkt]

Got a clue as to the doseage ?
Where are you going to strt ?

[Jtay]

Deferring to the following link you will note:

Dosage And Administration: The determination of baclofen's optimal dosage requires individual titration. Start therapy at a low dosage and increase gradually until optimum effect is achieved (usually between 40 to 80 mg daily).

The following dosage titration schedule is suggested: 5 mg 3 times daily for 3 days; 10 mg 3 times daily for 3 days; 15 mg 3 times daily for 3 days; 20 mg 3 times daily for 3 days.

Thereafter, additional increases may be necessary but the total daily dose should not exceed a maximum of 80 mg daily (20 mg 4 times daily).

Utilize the lowest dose compatible with an optimal response. If benefits are not evident after a reasonable trial period, withdraw patients slowly from the drug (see Warnings).

http://www.rxmed.com/b.main/b2.pharm.../LIORESAL.html

[Jtay]

However, remember the aforesaid dosage and administration is probably for the intended purpose of the drug which is Muscle Relaxant-Antispastic. I intend to be much more cautious until optimum effect is achieved. Therefore I will more or less follow the guidelines in the human study link herein this thread effects of baclofen on IGF-I. which is....

"Patients received escalating doses of baclofen for 4 weeks at each dose level (5, 10, and 20 mg/d). "

However, I will make one change....I will do 4 weeks at each dose level but @ 5,10,15,20 mg/d and so on until optimum level is achieved.

I will order my labs every month to monitor my progress. I will use directlabs.com (save about 50-66% on labs and doctor visit) thus, I don't need a script from my doc and they will send the labs directly to me by e-mail.

[Jtay]

If you're in the USA and you desire monthly testing as I do, directlabs.com is the only way to go IMHO. Otherwise, it would be cost prohibitive to pay a doctor visit every month plus their markup on the tests. You basically are getting the tests wholesale through DL at the same price the doctor pays.

http://www.directlabs.com/


Also, DL uses LabCorp thus, all you have to do is go to LabCorp web-page and locate a service center near you - third tab from the left at the top of the page. DL has many tests listed on their web page. However, if you don't find a particular test just go to LabCorps page and click on the corresponding first letter of the test you desire and your options will come up. For example, click on L for Luteinizing Hormone. Once you have LabCorps test number of the test you desire (assuming you did not find it on DL's web page) then call Leigh Wilkerson on DL's 800 number. She is a friend of mine and will give you a great price.

http://www.labcorp.com/dos/index.html

[zkt]

"However, remember the aforesaid dosage and administration is probably for the intended purpose of the drug which is Muscle Relaxant-Antispastic. I intend to be much more cautious until optimum effect is achieved. "

Yes- no doubt.
Sounds like a good plan there. Are you currently on trt ?
You got two threads goin on about the sme thing. I post to the other one in the future. Btw, glad to have you aboard.
Hey, thanks for the testing deal. My current plan is to have the VA do the all testing, assuming that my GP is cooperative, which may not be the case. The oneline available testing that I am familiar with isnt exactly cheap.

[Jtay]

What other thread? I quit posting on the other threads as I was duplicate posting of which was not efficient use of my time.

As far as my story.... In my late 30's i was concerned over losing my hair. Unfortunately for me, my doc prescribed Propecia (Finasteride) and within a month or two I began having emotionally disturbing side effects. I stopped the drug immediately believing the drug company/doctor that I would return to normal afterward. Instead, my symptoms progressively got worse over the years and a healthy young man turned old with premature Andropause.

I am an inventor,/engineer thus, research is my middle name. Due to experience and some inside scoop on the medical industry through some very good doctor friends, I have learned over the years that many doctors know little more than we do when it comes to matters other than surgical as is the case with my original doctor prescribing Finasteride and not informing me of the potential consequences of same.

Therefore, every time the doc wanted to put me on TRT it just didn't make sense to me. I wanted to find out more about steroid hormones and the negative feedback loop and what exactly could be done to stimulate GnRh to produce LH because I didn't like the fact of using HCG which only mimicked LH which would not allow me to monitor HCG/LH other than a guessing game, etc., etc. If all the questions weren't answered then I was not willing to be a test subject.

Is Baclofen the answer? Too early to tell. But for me, after much research, it is the first drug that I am willing to test on myself and if you knew me...that says a lot . If all goes well, hopefully, my T will be in the optimum range and I won't have to do TRT, if not, I will look forward to TRT for the first time and hopefully without the dreaded fear of T Negative feedback assuming Baclofen does at least that.

To put it in perspective, if all Baclofen does is eliminate the negative feedback of steroid hormones, specifically T, (with no, or minimal, side effects) IMO, it stands to revolutionize anti-aging medicine and bodybuilding assuming the drug companies and/or government doesn't step in and take it off the market because of the competing factor with much more expensive popular drugs and less need for doctor intervention.

Not to imply that doctors don't have their role, but it makes sense to me that the simpler things get the less need for medical care and therefore, the medical establishment has bias to keep it as complex as possible.

[zkt]

Yes, VERY good to have you here.
The short version of my story is here.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-...s-induced.html

My interests range from finding better treatments for andropause and menopause to asthma and memory loss. Which I am treating in myself and my wife- sometimes with MD help and sometimes not. I have had a love of chemistry and drugs since junior high school and have persued both academically and expermentally ina personal manner. Needless to say, I find the biochemistry the most interesting. But medicine ingeneral has a great deal allure.
I confess I havent read all the studies you posted but will soon. I also confess that I dont have a great deal of confidence in baclofen being an alternative to conventional TRT. I think if the effect on T were favorable someone would have been noticed by now. Baclofen has been around a long time. have ever heard any anechdodal evidence fo rit.But Im just playing the devils advocate.

[HeadDoc]

Sorry guys, I could not change the title of the thread as requested. I'm really enjoy what is being said of the baclofen. Never heard of the stuff. I'll have to plug it into PUBMED and see what turns up.

[HeadDoc]

I found that this medication is a GABA agonist used to treat spasms. Abrupt withdrawal puts someone at medical risk. Overdose can result in coma. It is chemically similar to Phenibut--another GABA agonist (which is available OTC). I guess we are all looking for one pill does all. My hope is that the end product of a SARM is the answer.

If you are going to do this, please keep us informed. The lab work will help alot. Good luck.

[Jtay]

Hello Head Doc glad to see you stop by.

The problem with SERMS is that this science is still in its infancy and they have been known to cause impotency. In fact, it is my understanding that Nolvadex has now been discontinued as breast cancer treatment in males due the magnitude of complaints and many women being treated by same also have this complaint. There are some real horror stories out there regarding impotence and the use of SERMs and since many share the same structure I would not be so quick to say this problem is exclusive to Nolvadex.. Hence, I no longer trust SERMS.

Anyway, it seems like all these expensive, complicated, treatments such as SERMs are doing just that...providing expensive, complicated, answers. Where there is complication, there is confusion, with no clear answers and the next drug is produced, then the next one, and so on, and so on. .

I believe the powers to be want it to remain that way as I stated before because they have a vested interest named the almighty dollar. Call it capitalism at its best, or at its worst, but as long as we the people subscribe to that manipulation and keep searching when the answer may be under our nose big pharma will keep on pumping out the propaganda.

Respectfully, lets look at another example of simplicity......

"Following baclofen administration, plasma GH rose in healthy males.....orally 10 mg of baclofen, the direct GABAB agonist which freely crosses the blood-brain barrier"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum

[Jtay]

ZKT,

The evidence is mounting....

So far this boring, cheap, drug that has been around for such a long time that all anti-aging docs have forgotten about it, by accident, or by design, has proven in scientific studies to be......

1) safe with no, to minimal, side effects when taken in proper dosage as advised
2) raise LH which we know raises T
3) reverse T negative feedback which helps us utilize T more effectively
4) increase IGF-I (do you know how much people pay for this stuff when this pill provides it for pennies?)
5) increase GH ( do you know how much people pay for GH when again this pill provides it for pennies)

and much more to come...stay tuned

I don't mind a devil's advocate because it brings balance to evaluation. However, respectfully, an informed mind makes a better devil's advocate which is why I post the links.

Regards and thanks, I'm glad to be here

[Jtay]

PS: In regards to your prior comment on baclofen and TRT. I'm not saying it will replace TRT because the verdict is still out. However, common sense based on studies would lead one to believe that this indeed could be the "magic pill" and revolutionize TRT and change it as we know it today. Here's why......

Many of the same protocols that anti-aging medicine subscribes to, this one little pill provides according to the scientific studies. Also, keep in mind the main difference between body building T utilization and anti-aging T utilization is the amount of T desired to achieve a satisfactory goal. Hence, those interested in anti-aging typically require only a nominal amount of T because they typically desire to be in the upper range of test results while those in bodybuilding are competitors/athletes desiring to push the envelope for that competitive edge.

Thus I submit, that it is logical to assume based on the studies that there is a chance that the male anti-aging candidate may indeed reach his T goal with the use of baclofen whereas, it is less likely the body builder will because his/her requirements are typically much higher. Even so, if baclofen does what the studies show it will do, do you know what that will mean to the body building regime. It will be revolutionary eg.,.....no more worry about the cycle as it relates to HCG and T because HCG will be obsolete, no more worry about testicular or penile shrinkage, etc., etc., etc.