SHBG = non-existant

[Axl]

In my last labs, my SHBG was non-existant!!
I have a SHBG level < 1 nmol/L (ref range 13 - 71 nmol/L).

Is this due to the T-injection I have gotten over the past three years? Is this dangerous? I'm seeing my endo next week and I would like to be prepared to discuss this.

My current protocol: 250 mg T enanthate every 10 days and 500 IU HCG one day prior to the shot and 1 day after te shot... (I know 125 mg every week is better, but here in Europe the docs still focus on shots every two to three weeks!! so I am glad I got it down to every 10 days). My current T level is 487 nd/dl (range 280 - 1100).

Should I try to get the levels up? Or just leave it? Is this a sign of a liver problem?

Suggestions??

[musclepigg]

Originally Posted by Axl

In my last labs, my SHBG was non-existant!!
I have a SHBG level < 1 nmol/L (ref range 13 - 71 nmol/L).

Is this due to the T-injection I have gotten over the past three years? Is this dangerous? I'm seeing my endo next week and I would like to be prepared to discuss this.

My current protocol: 250 mg T enanthate every 10 days and 500 IU HCG one day prior to the shot and 1 day after te shot... (I know 125 mg every week is better, but here in Europe the docs still focus on shots every two to three weeks!! so I am glad I got it down to every 10 days). My current T level is 487 nd/dl (range 280 - 1100).

Should I try to get the levels up? Or just leave it? Is this a sign of a liver problem?

Suggestions??

How do you feel? Are you hugely muscular and super-horny all the time? Have them do it again. I really think you need a knowledgable doctor to help you with this.

[Axl]

No, I'm not hugely muscular. In fact: I'm very thin. (think: "computergeek"). Ypu know, I have always trusted the lab: I have been going there for the last three years now. I had the flue at the time of testing, maybe this was the cause?

For the rest, I have always had superlow SHBG levels, I think this is due to the very low natural T-levels I have always had.

I just wanted to check if something is very wrong here, now my SHBG-levels have completely dropped to zero. SHBG is responsible for a big part of storage and transportation of testosterone, and maybe non-existant SHBG has an impact on my TRT effects.

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by Axl

No, I'm not hugely muscular. In fact: I'm very thin. (think: "computergeek"). Ypu know, I have always trusted the lab: I have been going there for the last three years now. I had the flue at the time of testing, maybe this was the cause?

For the rest, I have always had superlow SHBG levels, I think this is due to the very low natural T-levels I have always had.

I just wanted to check if something is very wrong here, now my SHBG-levels have completely dropped to zero. SHBG is responsible for a big part of storage and transportation of testosterone, and maybe non-existant SHBG has an impact on my TRT effects.

Read this link I don't feel your up on SHBG.
http://www.griffinmedical.com/male_h...n_therapy.html

[Axl]

Originally Posted by pmgamer18

Read this link I don't feel your up on SHBG.
http://www.griffinmedical.com/male_h...n_therapy.html

Great link Phil. However it focuses only on "how to drecrease high levels of SHBG", as usual.... That is a bit too simplistic. I think very few people understand what I am trying to say here. Let me explain.

Most people forget one imortant advantage of SHBG: it binds testosterone. By doing so, it makes testosterone temporarily inactive. I agree that this is not a good quality. That is the reason why so many people want to decrease SHBG. BUT: they forget that SHBG can gradually release some of the testosterone when needed and can act as a buffer. The alternative of NOT having any SHBG is worse!!!

Explanation:
You know that pure testosterone has a very short halflife (I mean PURE testosterone that comes in the body after de-esterification, also called Free (or unbound) Testosterone at this point).

As a consequence, pure testosterone (= Free Testosterone) needs to find a receptor site to bind to. If it cannot bind to an androgen receptor on the cell membrane (the ideal situation, making the testosterone active!), it can either bind to SHBG or albumin. If pure testosterone FAILS to make a connectionbinding within its half life, the testosterone molecule will DECOMPOSE within the body, making the testosterone COMPLETELY useless.

As a consequence, injecting testosterone will have ZERO use (because the testosterone molecules decompose and become inactive) and, as a result, TRT fails!!!!

That is why extremely low SHBG is NOT healthy, and that is why I worry so much about it. This is what is happening in my body: I inject a considerable amout of testosterone (250mg/10days), but my my total T levels are stil lowish: 480 ng/dl.

Please do note that SHBG has a minimum range of 13 nmol/L and not 0 nmol/L. That minimum range is there for a very specific reason!

I hope I made this clear for a lot of people. Now what I would like to know is what I can do to reach the minimum range again...

[1cc]

Originally Posted by Axl

In my last labs, my SHBG was non-existant!!
I have a SHBG level < 1 nmol/L (ref range 13 - 71 nmol/L).

My current T level is 487 nd/dl (range 280 - 1100).

Axl,

What day and time after or before your last T shot and HCG shot did you do these labs?

Are you taking any other supplements, herbs or medications and if so, what are they?

[Axl]

Originally Posted by 1cc

Axl,

What day and time after or before your last T shot and HCG shot did you do these labs?

Are you taking any other supplements, herbs or medications and if so, what are they?

The labs are taken the day before my next shot.

Other supplements:
- OTC supplement Calcium and vitamin D, because I have osteopenia due to low T
- vitamin B
- magnesium (450 mg/day)

[1cc]

Axl,

Your current dosage of T enanthate at 250mg every 10 days is way too high. This could be considered to be an AAS dosage instead of a TRT dosage. AAS dosages reduce SHBG tremendously.

This is from a post by Dr. Mike (ASIH.net):

"On one hand, it is generally accepted that androgens, unlike estrogens, reduce SHBG concentrations. Thus, SHBG concentrations are lower in males administered AAS. Administration of testosterone results in a 2-fold lowering of SHBG in normal and hypogonadal men. "

from this link:

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/474319-post10.html

Your dosage reduced to weekly would equal 175mg per week. Usually 100mg or less per week is sufficient to raise Total T to the upper quarter of the normal range. Your T levels in the first few days after your shot must be extremely high.

[MacDonnell]

Axl,

Your total T seems rather on the low side, esp. when considering your current med. regimen. How do you feel? Do you still have symptoms of hypogonadism? Maybe your E2 is high? Has your free or bioavailable T been tested? It would seem that with such a low SHBG, your free T would be fairly high. I guess the point of my post is to ask why you're concerned about the very low SHBG, and if you think there might be a correlation between that and how you feel.

Mac

[Axl]

Originally Posted by 1cc

Axl,

Your current dosage of T enanthate at 250mg every 10 days is way too high. This could be considered to be an AAS dosage instead of a TRT dosage. AAS dosages reduce SHBG tremendously.

This is from a post by Dr. Mike (ASIH.net):

"On one hand, it is generally accepted that androgens, unlike estrogens, reduce SHBG concentrations. Thus, SHBG concentrations are lower in males administered AAS. Administration of testosterone results in a 2-fold lowering of SHBG in normal and hypogonadal men. "

from this link:

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/474319-post10.html

Your dosage reduced to weekly would equal 175mg per week. Usually 100mg or less per week is sufficient to raise Total T to the upper quarter of the normal range. Your T levels in the first few days after your shot must be extremely high.

GREAT LINK! I agree that 1 large shot every 10 days is not the best opton, but I just can't reduce it to weekly shots... Would going on a gel be a better alternative???

[1cc]

Originally Posted by Axl

GREAT LINK! I agree that 1 large shot every 10 days is not the best opton, but I just can't reduce it to weekly shots... Would going on a gel be a better alternative???

Going onto a gel would probably be a better option for you personally considering your background and purposes for TRT. The gel will give you a much higher DHT conversion causing virilization, but once again it needs to be dosed correctly, because too much gel will also not be good.

If you continue to do shots, it would need to be dosed at least once a week, starting out at 100mg maximum per week and doing labs to see what your levels look like. Do not expect your labs for Total T to be very high the day before your next shot. It is normal that it will be much lower the day before, which is why Dr. John has his patients do HCG for the 2 days before their next T shot. It is also important that the high after the shot does not exceed the upper bounds of Total T by too much. If you do a lab 2 days after your shot in the morning, you will get what your peak T level is.

It is also important that your doctor is monitoring your Hemoglobin and Hematocrit, because these can get elevated on shots, especially high doses of T such as you are taking. If these are elevated it means that your blood is thicker which puts one in danger of a stroke.

[Axl]

Originally Posted by 1cc

Going onto a gel would probably be a better option for you personally considering your background and purposes for TRT. The gel will give you a much higher DHT conversion causing virilization, but once again it needs to be dosed correctly, because too much gel will also not be good.

If you continue to do shots, it would need to be dosed at least once a week, starting out at 100mg maximum per week and doing labs to see what your levels look like. Do not expect your labs for Total T to be very high the day before your next shot. It is normal that it will be much lower the day before, which is why Dr. John has his patients do HCG for the 2 days before their next T shot. It is also important that the high after the shot does not exceed the upper bounds of Total T by too much. If you do a lab 2 days after your shot in the morning, you will get what your peak T level is.

It is also important that your doctor is monitoring your Hemoglobin and Hematocrit, because these can get elevated on shots, especially high doses of T such as you are taking. If these are elevated it means that your blood is thicker which puts one in danger of a stroke.

Mmm, I can agree with the idea of using a gel for a while and see what happens in the labs... no way a European doc will try weekly shots. Personally, I have a very busy life and I'm not always in the country, and I don't like travelling with testosterone and syringes in my luggage... Gels might be better... How would gels affect my SHBG levels?

At this time I was acutally quite satisfied with my labs till now: I had total T in the 400-range, my E2 was nicely around 30 pg/nl, my androstanedione gluceronide levels were around the top of re ref range (= indication of DHT-levels) and I have no problems with my hemoglobine: I'm always aroung 45, and the maximum is around 53 (I can't remember the ref range out of my head).

I still have to admit that testosterone isn't working for me after all those years on TRT: my virilisation has only progressed a very tiny: for example I got 1 hair on my chest over the last 3 years! I still don't have any facial hair and I'm in my thirties... I still have fat deposits on my hips (female-like) and pseudo-gyno (which means I have tits, but they are made of 100% fat), for the rest I am really ex-tre-me-ly skinny: 135 lbs - 62kgs.

Sometimes I think I should stop doing TRT for a while and I should try a really hard anabolic cycle for some weeks... See if my body finally starts reacting to testosterone... give this old wreckage a REALLY good kick in the butt!

Of course: no doc would help me here... To be honoust for what depression and lust for sex is concerned, TRT has helped me out great!

[JanSz]

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/474205-post4.html
Low SHBG is associated with insulin resistance.
High SHBG is associated with high estrogen states (e.g. with obesity) or low DHEA (e.g. with adrenal fatigue).
------------------------------------------
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...jc.2005-1326v1
Conclusions: Low serum SHBG, low total testosterone, and clinical AD are associated with increased risk of developing MetS over time, particularly in non-overweight middle-aged men (BMI<25). Together, these results suggest that low SHBG and/or AD may provide an early warning sign for cardiovascular risk and an opportunity for early intervention in non-obese men.
------------------------------------------
about lowering shbg levels, but some good read
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/archiv...p/t-84046.html

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=84046
---
Conditions that suggest Low SHBG:
Hypothyroidism Modest reductions in SHBG levels may be encountered in individuals with hypothyroidism.

Hyperprolactinemia Modest reductions in SHBG levels may be encountered in individuals with hyperprolactinemia.

Elevated Cortisol Levels Modest reductions in SHBG levels may be encountered in individuals with Cushing's syndrome.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
you are skinny but:
http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/...newsletter.pdf
Low levels of SHBG may be associated
with hypothyroidism, obesity, or
acromegaly. Determination of SHBG
levels or free testosterone by
equilibrium dialysis may be helpful
for clarifying the underlying disorder,
--------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=...pt=sci_arttext
Low levels of sex hormone-binding globulin and hyperproinsulinemia as markers of increased pancreatic ß-cell demand in men

[1cc]

Originally Posted by Axl

How would gels affect my SHBG levels?

Once your T level is within the normal range again, your SHBG should stabilise back to normal.

Originally Posted by Axl

At this time I was acutally quite satisfied with my labs till now: I had total T in the 400-range, my E2 was nicely around 30 pg/nl, my androstanedione gluceronide levels were around the top of re ref range (= indication of DHT-levels)

These numbers would be much higher (way over the top) 2 days after your shot.

Originally Posted by Axl

my androstanedione gluceronide levels were around the top of re ref range (= indication of DHT-levels)

I'm not sure whether this lab would be a good indication of DHT levels. It would be best to do a DHT lab test to know for sure.

Originally Posted by Axl

I still have to admit that testosterone isn't working for me after all those years on TRT: my virilisation has only progressed a very tiny: for example I got 1 hair on my chest over the last 3 years! I still don't have any facial hair and I'm in my thirties... I still have fat deposits on my hips (female-like) and pseudo-gyno (which means I have tits, but they are made of 100% fat), for the rest I am really ex-tre-me-ly skinny: 135 lbs - 62kgs.

This could just be from not having high enough DHT levels.

Originally Posted by Axl

Sometimes I think I should stop doing TRT for a while and I should try a really hard anabolic cycle for some weeks... See if my body finally starts reacting to testosterone... give this old wreckage a REALLY good kick in the butt!

This would not be necessary and would probably cause you more harm than good. All you need is good T levels and good DHT levels, like anybody else.

Originally Posted by Axl

To be honoust for what depression and lust for sex is concerned, TRT has helped me out great!

That's great news!

[Axl]

Originally Posted by 1cc

Once your T level is within the normal range again, your SHBG should stabilise back to normal.

I don't think so because my SHBG has never been normal Not even in the labs before I started TRT it was too low.

I'm not sure whether this lab would be a good indication of DHT levels. It would be best to do a DHT lab test to know for sure.

I don't think it is possible to do a good DHT test, or am I wrong? My lab certainly cannot perform a DHT test, hence the androstandedione gluceronide test, which has proven to be a good indicator for DHT levels...

This could just be from not having high enough DHT levels.

I am starting to think that I just do not have enhough Androgen Receptors in my body, a genetic condition. can this be tested?