Spikes in LH

[hackskii]

Anyone know when LH is highest during the day or night?

I have been using HCG for recovery to get off TRT and I notice I get more morning wood taking it in the late afternoon then in the morning.

Also for some reason I notice the testicles respond better at this time.

Anyone have any thoughts on this or noticed this too?

For some reason it seems to work better at night and I dont know why.

Natural test levels spike at around 7:00 in the morning, I wonder if LH is highest during sleep.

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by hackskii

Anyone know when LH is highest during the day or night?

I have been using HCG for recovery to get off TRT and I notice I get more morning wood taking it in the late afternoon then in the morning.

Also for some reason I notice the testicles respond better at this time.

Anyone have any thoughts on this or noticed this too?

For some reason it seems to work better at night and I dont know why.

Natural test levels spike at around 7:00 in the morning, I wonder if LH is highest during sleep.

I don't think you will have much of a level of LH or FSH comming off TRT and using HCG.

[chap]

I think studies showed that testosterone peaks at 6 hr and 17 hrs. after a single injection of hcg.

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by chap

I think studies showed that testosterone peaks at 6 hr and 17 hrs. after a single injection of hcg.

Yes but HCG will shut down LH the same as T will right.

[chap]

hcg will not directly shut down lh per se, but the hormones it stimulates will

[pmgamer18]

You see to me trying to jump start ones self is like being between a rock and a hard place. I have been taken off T meds. 7 times one time it was for 6 months. Never got my T or LH and FSH to go up higher then my first blood test. But I feel that what your trying to do will not work unless you end up stoping everything so your body can try to go back to normal. So some where down the road you will need to stop doing anything that interfere with the hormone process.

[chap]

I agree with you except for the fact that as we age the body seems to like to slowly age and shut down on us unless we do some kind of intervention.... I'm just not sure that we have the knowledge and tools to do the perfect job yet.

Here is my 'theory' on the subject, just from reading and personal experiences, and may or may not be correct, but I am thinking that in cases where the testicles are still able to produce enough testosterone, that hcg is useful in providing a 'bridge' to get off of trt more naturally.... so running hcg for a week or two will allow the trt to clear and also will restore many other natural hormonal pathways. With hcg you are not doing anything to restore the hypothalmus or pituitary function though, so you must stop the hcg and use SERM's which stimulate and affect the hypothalmus and pituitary. I think the biggest problem with HCG is the spikes and valleys, which is still better than trt but getting natural pulsatile LH production going is still by far the best option if at all possible.

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by chap

I agree with you except for the fact that as we age the body seems to like to slowly age and shut down on us unless we do some kind of intervention.... I'm just not sure that we have the knowledge and tools to do the perfect job yet.

Here is my 'theory' on the subject, just from reading and personal experiences, and may or may not be correct, but I am thinking that in cases where the testicles are still able to produce enough testosterone, that hcg is useful in providing a 'bridge' to get off of trt more naturally.... so running hcg for a week or two will allow the trt to clear and also will restore many other natural hormonal pathways. With hcg you are not doing anything to restore the hypothalmus or pituitary function though, so you must stop the hcg and use SERM's which stimulate and affect the hypothalmus and pituitary. I think the biggest problem with HCG is the spikes and valleys, which is still better than trt but getting natural pulsatile LH production going is still by far the best option if at all possible.

Yes one has to go on and when I was taken off all my T meds Hell I could not get out of bed to get to work. So by doing HCG until all the T is gone sounds good but then you stop and do SERM's yet doing this does not mean your going to start to make T and you may never start. My levels just doing t shots were at 650 adding 500 IU's of HCG 3 x's a week. By the 15th shot my T levels went up to 1087. I am primary so where did the T come from this is the 64k question. Doing not TRT or HCG all I can do is 120 Total T so you can't tell me that my Testis make over 500 ng/dl of T. If they can't do it off meds then how are they going to do it adding HCG. So could it be some other glands that are making the T and in time forcing the T production will burn out these glands. No one and nothing I have read can say why my levels went this high just adding HCG.

[chap]

the testicles production of testosterone seems to be a delayed reaction sometimes, they get better at it with time and stimulation

[pmgamer18]

Yep this was my thinking or I have a pituitary problem but had this checked with an MRI. I lowed my T shot a few weeks a go not a lot just from 64 mgs. every 3 days to 52 mgs. And in less then 10 days I crashed so I am not about to stop doing T shots to see if my Testis can hold up to making T just on HCG. At my age I am not going to mess around anymore life is to short. But if you guys figure this out then I am game.

[hackskii]

I believe the adrenal glands produce some testosterone.

I was merely asking as I have been on test creams for 10 months. I did do some cycles and had low levels. I honestly don’t think this is permanent but temporary.
I had severe testicular atrophy and going off everything and waiting for the nuts to come back seemed foolish to me.
I mean that could take a year to get things rolling at that rate.
I figured it was the most prudent advice to get my nuts back before starting the SERMS or even doing the SERMS and HCG then continuing the SERMS for another 3 weeks.

I noticed that HCG seems to work best at late afternoon than early morning for recovery of my nuts. I don’t have unlimited supply of HCG and it is on shortage so I want the best bang for my buck.

I figured that the most natural timing would be the best idea for recovery or the best recovery for my smashed grapes to start looking like walnuts

[pmgamer18]

I think David Z does his HCG at night something about simulating the natural process being that T is the highest at night and early morning.

[chap]

I kept hearing that same mantra, and for me hcg did help to get some testicle size, but not really that much..... when I went on high dose clomid within four days my testicles were very noticeably larger...

I felt really bad the first week off of hcg and the first 3 days of clomid/nolva, but on the fourth day all of the sudden something switched on and since then have felt much much better than even when I was on trt.... I feel natural and good.... libido is still low but other than that everything is good.

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by chap

I kept hearing that same mantra, and for me hcg did help to get some testicle size, but not really that much..... when I went on high dose clomid within four days my testicles were very noticeably larger...

I felt really bad the first week off of hcg and the first 3 days of clomid/nolva, but on the fourth day all of the sudden something switched on and since then have felt much much better than even when I was on trt.... I feel natural and good.... libido is still low but other than that everything is good.

I hope this works and you guys can get a formula on how to do this keep a dam good log. So the next guy that wants to try this has something to read about it. I did talk to a guy that was shut down from using Propecia and he was on TRT for over a yr. Then he found a Dr. that put him on Clomid he did different doses over a 6 month time and got his testis working again. But like most men when there problems are gone so are they. We have no idea how he did this and can't find his post because he jumped into a tread with out starting a post him self so we can't find what he said. At the time it did not seem like a big deal but now know what we know now it is and would have been a big help.

[hackskii]

Ah, just the input I was looking for with regards to David Z.
I knew there was something I was noticing.
just had to run it down to be sure I am not mad

I do have a log on another board, I do daily inputs on it, I do stuff in morning and afternoon and I even put up if I am getting wood, how I feel, pumps at the gym everything.
I keep tabs on days times of administration everything, with good detail.
I think you actually can view the log without being a member too.

Well, from what I have read LH comes back in just a couple of weeks.
If the testicles are ready willing and able to accept the LH then they might start kicking again.
This is why I am using some Clomid and nolvadex. I will drop the clomid very soon and was using that too to basicly cover my bases.
Hear after a short period of time clomid desensitises the pituitary gland for GnRH but nolva does not.

I just could not see going off TRT with no nuts
I dont think my condition is permanant but temporary and the longer I stayed on the harder I felt It might just be for recovery.

No attempts were made for me to jumpstart anything prior to the doc putting me on.
In fact I have been on for 10 months and he never ever ran any more blood.
Tells you what type of doc this guy is, he even perscribed progesterone too to me.
I stopped that too after having a chat with Swale.
My fault really blindly following a quak.
Looking back at the time I really felt good about things.
I honestly felt better before this all started.
Sex drive is not what it was a year ago, in fact it is piss poor, but the HCG did help alot the last few nights

[T Man]

When coming off a steroid cycle or TRT.... HCG will certainly keep your HTPA axis suppressed. Its just like being on TRT or a cycle. The feedback loop is being satisfied so GNRH is slowed down and thusly LH and FSH are too. I don't know where you got the info that your Pituitary will come back in 2 weeks. You will be very lucky to have this happen. I have spoken to one of the foremost Pituitary research doctors in the country and this is what he had to say. "Depending on how long and how much the Pituitary was suppressed it could take years to recover and some people will never fully recover to there pre-steroid/TRT state. We have seen it take up to 7 years for recovery in some cases that we have followed." He was stating the unlucky worst case scenario. Of course some people do recover within a year.
He also said HCG alone had no benefit in HTPA axis recovery. It only serves to further suppress.

[DavidZ]

For the 6 years I've been on an HCG only protocol, I've been injecting HCG at bedtime per Dr. Shippen's instructions. He says that it best duplicates the body's circadian rhythm.

After a long dialogue with Swale about a year ago about HCG injection timing, I started experimenting. I tried morning injections for a couple of days and started to feel tired, like I was beginning to crash, so I immediately went back to bedtime injections.

OTOH, Swale recommended injecting once a day, instead of twice a week, which I tried and liked. I've been injecting nightly ever since.

Originally Posted by T Man

When coming off a steroid cycle or TRT.... HCG will certainly keep your HTPA axis suppressed. Its just like being on TRT or a cycle. The feedback loop is being satisfied so GNRH is slowed down and thusly LH and FSH are too. I don't know where you got the info that your Pituitary will come back in 2 weeks. You will be very lucky to have this happen. I have spoken to one of the foremost Pituitary research doctors in the country and this is what he had to say. "Depending on how long and how much the Pituitary was suppressed it could take years to recover and some people will never fully recover to there pre-steroid/TRT state. We have seen it take up to 7 years for recovery in some cases that we have followed." He was stating the unlucky worst case scenario. Of course some people do recover within a year.
He also said HCG alone had no benefit in HTPA axis recovery. It only serves to further suppress.

During my 6 years of HCG only, my HCG dosage slowly declined but eventually levelled off. At first I was convinced that my HPTA was recovering, but now I don't think so.

[hackskii]

Thanks David, I thought something was going on which I did notice more erections and fuller nuts.
Now that makes alot more sense and actually just felt right and found this by accident.
Thanks that was very cool.

T man if you read any of my posts, having nuts the size of smashed grapes needs to be addressed.
Atrophied nuts will make recovery harder than nuts that have some testicular function right?

Or is your point that I am only further hindering my HPTA (which the "T" does stand for Testicular) getting my nuts back to speed?
Would this really matter much being on TRT for 10 months?
Would 3 weeks set me back farther than the 10 months previous?
I think the SERMs will help with the other HPTA (Hypothalamus Pituitary) part of the equation.

Do you have any other suggestions Tman?
Just cold turkey it with rasin nuts?

Thanks again DavidZ that was cool.

[DavidZ]

Originally Posted by hackskii

Thanks David, I thought something was going on which I did notice more erections and fuller nuts. Now that makes alot more sense and actually just felt right and found this by accident. Thanks that was very cool.

You're welcome, hackskii.

Swale recommends taking HCG in the morning. His rationale is: "so you can enjoy the benefits of HCG during the day." Many posters on Swale's combo protocol have described these benefits as "that feeling of well-being" that comes about a hour after an HCG shot.

I'm beginning to think that this "feeling of well being" is something quite distinct from the T response that HCG yields.

My experience indicates that the T response that a given dosage of HCG yields is much larger when taken at bedtime. Perhaps I'm getting "that feeling of well-being" during my sleep. You might say that I'm wasting that feeling. I think not. First of all, I feel great all day. Secondly, sleep is a critical time of recharging the battery. If HCG is giving me better sleep, I'm sure that benefits me during the day, too.

[Bayou230]

I went cold turkey this week on the TRT after 10 months on. At various points along the way I've been doing 10g Androgel, 20mg Nolva, 50mg Zinc and 20mg Lasix everyday. Started to feel bad...fatigued, muscle aches and sleepy during daytime. At first I thought it was the Nolva, since it was the newcomer to the mix. That appears not to be true.

Since my DHT levels have soared way above normal, I thought the most logical thing to drop in an effort to see if I feel better was the Androgel.

Hackskii asked about going cold turkey with rasin nuts. That what I'm doing, The only thing I'm taking now is the Nolva and Lasix.

I can confirm other post in this thread indicating improved night time wood while on the Nolva alone. Will give the jury a bit of time to see if the nuts are recovering. They didn't shrink overnight so I don't expect them to recover over night.

But what about long term? I'm thinking about the possiblity of starting a routine of test injections (in an effort to avoid elevated DHT) on an IRREGULAR schedule. Everyone talks about the roller coaster effect of rising and falling test levels. I'm thinking I can endure the perils of falling levels in order to enjoy the benfits of rising levels. I believe SWALE stated that the high you get from initially starting TRT is due to rising levels. (And starting my TRT program was really sweet for me.) Maybe an irregular routine will keep the nuts on notice that they have to pull some of the weight, too.

Sorry for the long post. Feel free to let me know if you think my brain is matching my rasins, size for size Hope this is not too much off topic.

[chap]

everything I've experienced says that the infrequent test approach wouldn't be good.... the 'benefits' you felt with initial rising test seems to not work as well the next time and the time after and so on... seems to me you will be keeping yourself suppressed without enjoying any possible benefits.... I like the infrequent SERM approach better as having merit

just my opinion