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| Men's Health Forum: This is a discussion on Test is Test? within the Anabolic Steroids forums, part of the extensive steroid information at MESO-Rx; " Test is test " just like "water is water", right? According to the scientific beliefs this message board, any ... |
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10-06-2005, 01:16 PM
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 Test is Test?
"Test is test" just like "water is water", right? According to the scientific beliefs this message board, any two jars of pure H2O would exhibit identical properties. What if I fill a jar of water by distilling pure H2O? My end result would be indistinguishable from pure H2O. Even though it is still H2O -- and not "highschool chemistry book different" from undistilled H2O -- that water is now 96% to 97% pentagonally structured water. It's still "wet", clear, and quenches thirst, yet it's different in a very significant way. In this type of structured water, namely the distilled, fish and algae and plankton will die at 10 degress centigrade. Natural water is hexagonally structured and healthier to drink. Water from mountain lakes and creeks and ponds that comes from snowpacks, has long been known to be the healthiest water in the world; it is what we call "living water." It isn't just because of a lack of additives and pollutants, it's literally because of the structure. To be concluded is that the process involved in filtering, extracting, or synthetically "producting" any chemical, namely one as complex and specific as a human hormone, significant changes are made in structure and ionization that create a similar - but not identical - chemical. Many health practicioners that tout the benefits of caffiene will insist that natural caffiene is healthy, where as synthetic caffiene is harmful. Both are "caffiene" and like the synthetic vs. natural T situtation, both the exhibit similar properties. Emphasis on the word similar. Finally, the LEF, which sponsors this particular part of the MESO-RX boards, maintains in its bound and published guide to natural treatment for common diseases that the injectible tesosterones are unhealthy to use in the long term. They argue that compunded gels with "natural" testosterone are the safe and more effective route to take regarding HRT. No detailed explanation is provided, but the articles in that journal are condensed for space consideration. Thoughts?        |
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10-06-2005, 01:45 PM
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My Dr said the same thing about using Natural versus Synthetic, one member here does not agree. I found some info here but again no real studies. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...f0ca3342dcd889 |
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10-06-2005, 02:55 PM
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No chemical is pure and the impurities will depend on if the chemical was derived from a natural source or synthetic proccess. Usually the amounts of the impurities are very small so it probably doesn't make much difference. The other problem is that sometimes people sell crude mixtrues and label them as pure (particularly suppliments). For example with vitamin E some sell d,l - tocophenol which is really a 50/50 mixture of d and l tocophenol. Unfortunaltely only on of them is active in the body. They may also do things like labeling methyltestosterone as "oral testosterone" which is very bad. So in some cases you do need to be careful. |
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10-06-2005, 04:29 PM
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Philosophically, you raise some interesting points. However from the point of view of TRT I'm not sure of their value. Unfortunately, there is no external source of pure T. Whether harvested from humans, animals, yams, etc., or synthesied entirely from scratch, the T you end up with will have been subjected to mechanical and chemical processes during refinement/synthesis. Once you purify T, it's no more (or less) natural than distilled water. Refinement/synthesis introduce contaminants that remain after purification. In a pharmacutical grade T, the ratio of total contaminants to T will be very, very small. Without getting into the validity of your water discussion, chemically identical molecules can exist in differing conformations. There are isomers of T, but they aren't T. For instance, 5,6-Didehydroisoandrosterone has a different 2d structure and Epitestesterone has a different 3d structure. As long as you are using pharmacutical grade T, you are using a chemically identical, conformationally identical product (with the exceptions in contaminant noted above). Now, getting into the validity of your water discussion, at STP water undergoes conformational changes at the nanosecond time scale. There are ways to get water to remain more in one conformation than the other, but not at STP. Distilled water is highly purified water and there is no question that it will behave differently than less pure water. It boils more violently because there are few impurities for the gas bubbles to form on. Without impurities it freezes differently, as well. And it is true that many freshwater fish will become distressed and/or die in distilled water. But not because it is pentagonal. The reason is because it is more hypotonic than the water they evolved to live in. It's the same reason most salt water fish can't live in fresh water. Add the right combination of salts and minerals, reducing the osmotic pressure they experience, and they are fine. The same holds true for algae. Besides a belief that "natural" just has to be better, I see little to support a difference between harvested and synthetic T. Once purified, neither are natural in the sense that most people use the word. I'm not suggesting that an arguement can't be made (although I haven't seen any evidence one way or the other) that using esterized T is different than non-esterized T. Clearly before the ester is cleave they are different. Once the ester is cleave, in terms of T they are the same. The real issue is the effect of the by-product of the cleaved ester, and the effect would be the same regardless of whether it was orignally attached to the T or came from somewhere else. |
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10-06-2005, 11:51 PM
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In the world of TRT, there is no such thing as "natural" T. Exogenous T in any form is synthetic. It all comes from soy beans or yams. End of story. In spite of the above, there is a difference between T for injection and T for transdermal use. The injectable T has been esterified to lengthen its half-life. Transdermal T is T - virtually indistinguishable from naturally occurring T. It is also possible that the manufacturing process could leave traces impurities and antigens that could cause problems for a few people. For example, the package insert for Androgel cautions people who are allergic to soy beans to use AG with caution. Nevertheless, some very credible people--Crisler, Shippen, Rothenberg, etc.-- assure us that exogenous T, either injectable or transdermal is entirely safe for most people. I think LEF is a great source for quality nutritional supplements, and if your insurance won't pay for it, you can get reasonably priced bloodwork, but I would trust heavy-hitters like SWALE with my health before I would some under-qualified writer for LEF. |
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10-07-2005, 10:28 AM
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Remove the esters from esterized testosterone and you are left with a standard testosterone molecule. If you are afraid of esters then fine. Use a transdermal. But don't take my injectable T cyp away from me, or we'll have a problem. |
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10-07-2005, 10:39 AM
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10-07-2005, 01:07 PM
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For TRT is doesn't matter because you just can't get natural T, and because synthetic T is chemically identical, conformationally identical, bio-identical and every other kind of identical to natural T. When you add an ester to the T it isn't the same as T, but from the moment when your body cleaves the ester off of the T it becomes chemically identical, conformationally identical, bio-identical and every other kind of identical to natural T. So, test is test is test. This isn't true for every replacement, but it is for test. p.s. ignore my spelling, I did. |
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10-07-2005, 11:56 PM
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Testosterone with an ester attached makes the testosterone inactive in the body. The liver removes the ester, leaving the standard, bioidentical testosterone molecule. The esters have a long track record of safety. Why are the esters attached? It makes the testosterone time-released. Last edited by mranak; 10-08-2005 at 10:30 AM. |
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10-08-2005, 03:10 AM
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As far as 'natural' versus 'synthetic' hormones go, if a hormone molecule has the same chemical structure as the form found in the human body, it is functionally and chemically the same. The body has no way of knowing that the atoms were put together somewhere else. The testosterone that body builders inject is identical to the endogenous form, once the ester has been removed from the structure. However this is not true of the estrogens that most post-menopausal women take. The most common estrogen supplement is Premarin which is extracted from the urine of PREgant MARes. This horse estrogen is similar but not identical to the human form. It's close enough to activate the estrogen receptors, but it can have other effects that human estrogen does not. The 'natural hormone' movement is mostly targeted at older women who were taking a supplement like Premarin. The idea is to replace this with a compounded patch that contains a mixture of human estrogens, testosterone, and progesterone according to woman's endocrine test results. |
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10-08-2005, 10:35 PM
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