Thyroid Results before and after HC - please interp

[eeso]

Before HC:
Free T4 11.1 pmol/L (9.0 - 19.0)
Free T3 4.5 pmol/L (2.6 - 6.0)
TSH 2.2 mU/L (0.3 - 5.0)

Since being on HC:
Free T4: 16 pmol/L (10-20)
Free T3: 5.4 pmol/L (2.8-6.8)
TSH 3.1 mU/L (0.40-4.00)


As you can see my thyroid has been working harder since going on HC. Even though my TSH is high, does this even matter since my fT3 and fT4 levels are better?

I tried going on Armour again and got up to 2grains and felt awful, dropped back to 1.5grains felt awful, now back to 1 grain.

Going by these labs does it look like that just taking HC is enough to give my Thyroid the speed up it needs? I noticed my temps got better just from HC alone. Everytime I try armour is just backfires on me after a while even if I increase slowly.

[Sargovar]

I remember Dr. John saying that a high TSH coupled with decent or good FT3 & FT4 readings usually means that the thryoid is doing its job - but having to work very hard to get it done. This is my exact situation.

I'm no expert, but your case seems odd.. it would seem intuitive and logical to me that if one had low cortisol, he might have a pooling of thyroid hormones in the blood coupled with limited cellular level action, and the resulting high TSH number to prove it (of course, it might not be the same in a hypopituitary situation). Furthermore, one would expect the TSH to drop lower as he initiated hydrocortisone therapy, as more of the thyroid hormones would reach the cells & do there job, and therefore lessen the pituitary's need to signal the thyroid to ramp up its activity.

So you're on 1 grain of Armour at the moment? Maybe you would do fine with the HC alone. I guess there is some wisdom in sticking to the protocol with which you feel the best, and if that is HC alone, then that's just fine, no matter what the numbers say.

[eeso]

Thank you very much for your reply sargova.

I should have posted that i AM hypopituitary. I have empty sella syndrome which means my pituitary is being squashed but still works to the most part - just dimished.

I have started dosing things on how I feel and I think this is the best way. I think the cookie cutter 20mg HC + increasing armour to 2-3 grains is not the way to go for me. I found 20mg HC simply much too much for me as well.

I'd still be interested to know why HC improved my thyroid labs so much though.

[Sargovar]

No problemo, Eeso.

Ah, so you are hypopituitary.. well then, I guess the same rules don't apply.
Yep, we certainly aren't all made from the same mold.. not everyone will benefit the most from the standardized treatment protocols.

Apart from the highish TSH (which, in itself, doesn't necessarily mean that anything is terribly wrong), your thyroid labs looked pretty decent since you went on HC. How were your temperatures on that regimen?
Maybe your body is simply much more efficient at processing HC than many other people; that you will benefit from a lower dose and utilize it more effectively. Also, I don't think everybody necessarily needs both Armour AND HC.. I suspect that I myself might be one of those people who'd do better on HC alone.

I would also be interested in finding out why the HC caused such a favorable shift in your thyroid numbers (apart from the TSH, which went up). Maybe one of the experts can chime in?

[eeso]

Hi Sarcover, thanks again.

My temps are always low no matter what - I think that's just how I am. Even on 20HC and 2grains armor my temps never really got above 36.5 celcius during the day, usually 36.4 though.

I think I'm just not meant to run as warm as other people, but here's the important thing - how I feel.

Before HC I would get so cold at night that I just couldn't raise my core temp no matter what. Heating, 2 layers of clothing, 2 doonas - I just couldn't get my core up. It's an awful feeling.

However after going on HC this went away and I could sleep comfortably in normal clothing and no heating etc. My day time temps didn't change much at all but I certainly felt a lot different.

I'm backing down to 0.5 grains armour today. I'll keep it down at 0.5grain and get a lab done in a couple of weeks to so where I'm at. Will continue with the HC but just dose as I feel necessary.

[1ainslie]

Originally Posted by eeso

Before HC:
Free T4 11.1 pmol/L (9.0 - 19.0)
Free T3 4.5 pmol/L (2.6 - 6.0)
TSH 2.2 mU/L (0.3 - 5.0)

Since being on HC:
Free T4: 16 pmol/L (10-20)
Free T3: 5.4 pmol/L (2.8-6.8)
TSH 3.1 mU/L (0.40-4.00)


As you can see my thyroid has been working harder since going on HC. Even though my TSH is high, does this even matter since my fT3 and fT4 levels are better?

I tried going on Armour again and got up to 2grains and felt awful, dropped back to 1.5grains felt awful, now back to 1 grain.

Going by these labs does it look like that just taking HC is enough to give my Thyroid the speed up it needs? I noticed my temps got better just from HC alone. Everytime I try armour is just backfires on me after a while even if I increase slowly.

Just read your post with interest, I am the same, on 20mg HC and feel crap if I even go as high as 25 mg and bloody awful on 30mg. Okish on 1.5 Grains (90mg) armour but go to 105mg even I feel shit (not hyper justt awful) even tried increasing very slowly over 6 weeks but no good, puzzles every Doc I speak to. T3 at max range on 90mg but still cant get temp above 36.5. Came off Armour 6 weeks ago stiill readjusting ?. Seeing another Thyroid specialist next month.
What is significance of being hypopituitory as mentioned in your other post.

[eeso]

Hi 1ainslie,

I'm dropping back to 0.5 grains and feel better again. Still staying on HC and just dose as I feel necessary. I feel much better coming down off the armour.

The significance of hypopituitary is that all my HPTA hormonal levels seem to be at the bottom of the normal range. Testosterone is at bottom of range, thyroid before HC was middle to lower end of range, adrenal saliva tests were bottom of range and so on. I've never really had a doctor who knows anything about it though.

I'm just going to dose things on how i feel now.

I don't believe the temperature gauge is useful for everyone. I think how u feel is much more important. I think my temp just runs lower than most people and that's normal for me because no matter how much HC and Armour I worked up to it didn't budge my thermometre temp.

However, when I was on no medication I couldn't get my core temp - how i felt, to be warm. Using 3 doonas, heating, and layers of clothing wouldn't keep my warm inside at night when my girlfriend slept in nothing but a nightie and a sheet. Obviously there was something wrong there. However when I went on HC I suddenly felt normally warm at night, but my thermometre temps didn't really change much, if at all. Going up on more and more HC and Armour offered me no benefits at all and didn't raise my thermometre temp more either - so what's the point.

So to my point - I'm no longer striving for the mistical 20mg HC and 3 grains Armour as I just think it's not that straight forward. If it were that easy then there wouldn't be so many forums and yahoo groups dedicated to people who can't get their adrenal and thyroid doses correct.

Instead of being obsessed over the latest theories and internet gurus, I'm going to start listening to how I feel.

[1ainslie]

Originally Posted by eeso

Hi 1ainslie,

I'm dropping back to 0.5 grains and feel better again. Still staying on HC and just dose as I feel necessary. I feel much better coming down off the armour.

The significance of hypopituitary is that all my HPTA hormonal levels seem to be at the bottom of the normal range. Testosterone is at bottom of range, thyroid before HC was middle to lower end of range, adrenal saliva tests were bottom of range and so on. I've never really had a doctor who knows anything about it though.

I'm just going to dose things on how i feel now.

I don't believe the temperature gauge is useful for everyone. I think how u feel is much more important. I think my temp just runs lower than most people and that's normal for me because no matter how much HC and Armour I worked up to it didn't budge my thermometre temp.

However, when I was on no medication I couldn't get my core temp - how i felt, to be warm. Using 3 doonas, heating, and layers of clothing wouldn't keep my warm inside at night when my girlfriend slept in nothing but a nightie and a sheet. Obviously there was something wrong there. However when I went on HC I suddenly felt normally warm at night, but my thermometre temps didn't really change much, if at all. Going up on more and more HC and Armour offered me no benefits at all and didn't raise my thermometre temp more either - so what's the point.

So to my point - I'm no longer striving for the mistical 20mg HC and 3 grains Armour as I just think it's not that straight forward. If it were that easy then there wouldn't be so many forums and yahoo groups dedicated to people who can't get their adrenal and thyroid doses correct.

Instead of being obsessed over the latest theories and internet gurus, I'm going to start listening to how I feel.

Well thats reassuring to know I am noo the only one, I got the impression everyone else just upped the Armour to get the magical 98 degress and take a much HC as needed to get there.
Strange thing is so far every doc I have spoken to (and theres several famous ones amongst them) does not understand it. I wondered if there was something in the fillers used in Armour or HC that I might be allergic to. I am seeing another Thyroid specialist next month and will post if I learn anything new. In the meantime good luck and good health

[eeso]

Maybe you should give bio-identical t4/t3 compounded combination a go?

[JimRat]

Some people report success with raising body temperature using Dr. Wilson's T3 protocol. It calls for suspended release T3 only. Supposedly it reduces the amount of Rt3 in the tissues by avoidance of T4 altogether. I don't know too much about it but just Google it. There are specialists in T3 only therapy apparently.

[eeso]

I was tested for reverse T3 and thyroid antibodies and all came back normal

[techlogik]

Yeah, the whole STTM and Real Thyroid help with the woman over there and their cookie cutter approach to everything isn't for everyone and just won't work but for some.

3-5 grains of armour is kind of high and crazy IMO. If you need 5 grains of armour, I mean come on think about it, that is 500mcg of T4 and 100mcg of T3!! that is a ton of thyroid meds. But that is what many say to do over there. When I hit 150mg..good god..I when hyperthroid, and not "hyper" symptoms, true hyperthyroid where you basically have similar symptoms as hypo. Fatigue, foggy head..was past jitters..just felt my blood was going to blow out of my veins and something wasn't right..now I know what hyperthyroid symptoms are so I won't do that again.

But, my lab TSH was .025, the scale was .03-5.5

Talking about too much Armour!?!? I definitely had too much. And that was 150mg. Just felt terrible.

Same with HC, some people don't feel well on 20mg HC, plus, have you actually have saliva cortisol testing done to show you are actually adrenal insufficient?

Otherwise, you can go too much HC if your adrenals are fine. Same situation.

As I understand it, with HC, when you are on the right dose, it is like night/day. I never had that effect with the stuff personally, sounds like you haven't either and blood work backs that up.

Good luck.

[zkt]

Originally Posted by Sargovar

No problemo, Eeso.

Ah, so you are hypopituitary.. well then, I guess the same rules don't apply.
Yep, we certainly aren't all made from the same mold.. not everyone will benefit the most from the standardized treatment protocols.

Apart from the highish TSH (which, in itself, doesn't necessarily mean that anything is terribly wrong), your thyroid labs looked pretty decent since you went on HC. How were your temperatures on that regimen?
Maybe your body is simply much more efficient at processing HC than many other people; that you will benefit from a lower dose and utilize it more effectively. Also, I don't think everybody necessarily needs both Armour AND HC.. I suspect that I myself might be one of those people who'd do better on HC alone.

I would also be interested in finding out why the HC caused such a favorable shift in your thyroid numbers (apart from the TSH, which went up). Maybe one of the experts can chime in?

Wish those experts would chime in too because I`ve been looking for the boichemical process involved for a while. There is a ton of clinical(mostly anecdodal) evidence that relate T3,4 to cortisol and HC levels. Medrol definitely has a positive effect on my subjective T level when administered concurrently with TCyp or HCG. But reading the studies for mention of the biochemical mechanism eludes me. For that matter, dont think I`ve ever found any study investigating this. Altho have found evidence that cortisol is necessary for cleaveage of the iodine groups in thyroid hormones.
.

[eeso]

Just updating my progress..

I'm completely off Armour now as it was making me feel absolutely awful, and now I feel much much better just being on the dhea+HC. I'm also on test gel and I feel very good all round except I have no mojo.

I've managed to stay warm at night and not get sick or anything (winter here) so HC is definitely still doing the trick for me in keeping my thyroid going.

[zkt]

Originally Posted by eeso

Just updating my progress..

I'm completely off Armour now as it was making me feel absolutely awful, and now I feel much much better just being on the dhea+HC. I'm also on test gel and I feel very good all round except I have no mojo.

I've managed to stay warm at night and not get sick or anything (winter here) so HC is definitely still doing the trick for me in keeping my thyroid going.

Not sure I understand your Sx and reactions to HC and thyroid hormones.
Would you mind reiterating them ?