TRT newbie with concerns

[troubledfinuser]

Hi every1.

My blood tests revealed that i have borderline low total T as in 12 (10-30)
and also very low free T as in 6.3 (7-X)

I dont have my complete panel yet as these were the only numbers given to me over the phone.
But the other hormones were in check as the dr said. alltho i am starting to c how everything is related to something else when reading up in here so i will post again once i have the rest of the numbers.

However, this started christmas 2005 when i started feeling really bad after stopping propecia.
I dident get sexual hormones tested untill just 3 weeks ago as the drs dident think this was relevant even tho i litterally begged him just to make sure it wasent an issue. So now i checked alot of stuff concearning trt as this seems to be a good thing to atleast try. Ive come to understand that its important to include hcg in a good trt plan. I realise every1 is different but is this correct? I have tried 4 different endos in stockholm and neither of them have been willing to prescrive HCG as a part of a TRT plan. Only testogel. I havent discussed anti E nore anti DHT with either endo yet, i hope they are not as stiff with these as it seem to be a common issue with elevated estrogens for example.

So, how important is it to use hcg shots in terms of testicle shrinkage? or fertility? Some1 posted in another thread that dr shippen said that its possible that testicles produce something we havent disscovered yet so keeping them active is probably a good thing. I agree, why not keep them active if thats an option, how could it be beneficial not to? I dont know alot bout trt yet so i could be off, but it seems like the smart thing to do. Is there a way to do hcg shots by yrself if no drs in sweden will prescribe it to me? Internet shops or something? If so would all values that show in normal tests for testogel check ups also show all relevant values for hcg? Or would i need to add any tests to be sure everything was okay if doing hcg on my own? It sounds like they would but i am not taking anything for granted anymore.

I am not saying i will do anything without a dr giving his approval, it would just be nice to have that option in the future if felt nessesary.

Very informative site by the way.

Any info would be wellcome, thanks in advance.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by troubledfinuser

Hi every1.

My blood tests revealed that i have borderline low total T as in 12 (10-30)
and also very low free T as in 6.3 (7-X)

I dont have my complete panel yet as these were the only numbers given to me over the phone.
But the other hormones were in check as the dr said. alltho i am starting to c how everything is related to something else when reading up in here so i will post again once i have the rest of the numbers.

However, this started christmas 2005 when i started feeling really bad after stopping propecia.
I dident get sexual hormones tested untill just 3 weeks ago as the drs dident think this was relevant even tho i litterally begged him just to make sure it wasent an issue. So now i checked alot of stuff concearning trt as this seems to be a good thing to atleast try. Ive come to understand that its important to include hcg in a good trt plan. I realise every1 is different but is this correct? I have tried 4 different endos in stockholm and neither of them have been willing to prescrive HCG as a part of a TRT plan. Only testogel. I havent discussed anti E nore anti DHT with either endo yet, i hope they are not as stiff with these as it seem to be a common issue with elevated estrogens for example.

So, how important is it to use hcg shots in terms of testicle shrinkage? or fertility? Some1 posted in another thread that dr shippen said that its possible that testicles produce something we havent disscovered yet so keeping them active is probably a good thing. I agree, why not keep them active if thats an option, how could it be beneficial not to? I dont know alot bout trt yet so i could be off, but it seems like the smart thing to do. Is there a way to do hcg shots by yrself if no drs in sweden will prescribe it to me? Internet shops or something? If so would all values that show in normal tests for testogel check ups also show all relevant values for hcg? Or would i need to add any tests to be sure everything was okay if doing hcg on my own? It sounds like they would but i am not taking anything for granted anymore.

I am not saying i will do anything without a dr giving his approval, it would just be nice to have that option in the future if felt nessesary.

Very informative site by the way.

Any info would be wellcome, thanks in advance.

Smal number of people get hurt by Propecia or Proscar.
To figure out what to do you need good blood test.
Get your blood tested per list below:
Post results with units and ranges.

Complete metabolic Panel
Hepatic Function Panel
Lipid Panel
CBC

Total Estrogens
estrone
Estradiol, sensitive
Progesterone
Pregnenolone
Total Testosterone
Free Testosterone (calculated)
Bio-available Testosterone (calculated)
Albumin
sex hormone–binding globulin (SHBG), serum
DHT (dihydrotestosterone)
Hematocrit
prolactin, serum
FSH (3rd Generation)
LH
Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH)
Free (T3) triiodothyroxine
Free T4
Total T4
Total T3
DHEA Sulfate
Cortisol, AM/PM
SOMATOMEDIN C (IGF-1)
IGF-BP3
C-reactive protein (high-sensitivity)
Fibrinogen
Hemoglobin A1C
Lp(a) lipoprotein
Bilirubin
AST (SGOT)
ALT(SGPT)
VLDL
Homocysteine
Insulin, fasting
Glucose, plasma
Magnesium
Vitamin D, 1, 25-Dihydroxy
Folate
Vitamin A
Ferritin
B12, selenium, zinc, copper
Free PSA
FreePSA/Total PSA
aldosterone
Estradiol, Bioavailable

[zkt]

"So, how important is it to use hcg shots in terms of testicle shrinkage? "
Eventually the testes will shrink on TRT. Usually reversable by replacing T treatment with hcg. HCG should be used only for a short time to resensitive the testes to LH.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by zkt

"So, how important is it to use hcg shots in terms of testicle shrinkage? "
Eventually the testes will shrink on TRT. Usually reversable by replacing T treatment with hcg. HCG should be used only for a short time to resensitive the testes to LH.

I am using HCG 250IU eod.
I can feel difference in testicle fulness and scrotum tightness/relaxation on the off days.
I am not fond of daily shots and I do not care about fertility so I keep it that way.
As long as I want to keep my balls I have to use HCG.
HCG is new experience for me. I started it for the first time in February.
Previously for over three years I was on testosterone and no HCG.
Feel nice to be able to pull on my balls or have somebody nice doing it for me but it is ok life to be with out them, the other part of equipment works regardless.

[troubledfinuser]

Thanks for yr informative awnsers.

I will return and post my complete hormone panels etc when i have had it available to me.
My main concern these days are my very low energy levels to the point of not existing at all. It bathers my more than low libido and erection issues. I sleep 10 hours each day yet i wake up feeling really tired and not as in sleepy tired, its more like i am wore down kinda feeling.
Also i have insomnia at nights so my sleeping pattern is irregular.

Is low energy level and or insomnia something that improves alot for men in general on trt ?

Thanks again.

[zkt]

Energy level- often, maybe generally
insomnia - not sure about that. Lots of things cause insomnia.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by troubledfinuser

Thanks for yr informative awnsers.

I will return and post my complete hormone panels etc when i have had it available to me.
My main concern these days are my very low energy levels to the point of not existing at all. It bathers my more than low libido and erection issues. I sleep 10 hours each day yet i wake up feeling really tired and not as in sleepy tired, its more like i am wore down kinda feeling.
Also i have insomnia at nights so my sleeping pattern is irregular.

Is low energy level and or insomnia something that improves alot for men in general on trt ?

Thanks again.

What is your body temperature?

Get your thyroid and adrenals testet.
At least
FreeT3
FreeT4
DHEA
cortisolAM/PM
===============
I have a nice long list for testing if you want?

[troubledfinuser]

Originally Posted by JanSz

What is your body temperature?

Get your thyroid and adrenals testet.
At least
FreeT3
FreeT4
DHEA
cortisolAM/PM
===============
I have a nice long list for testing if you want?

Funny u should ask. My temp is 36.1 degree Celsius, bit on the low part :/ and my ph is also low at 6.2 (urine sample)

Most tests they are all in the planning or on the way. As for yr list i would gladly c it. Alltho i am not sure i can pay for them all (have to be selective). In sweden all testing is free if u dont go private, the trouble is convinsing the drs u require the testing, as every1 wants all tests they are not easily giving u tests for everything. Took me 4 different drs (more than a year) just to get sex hormones tested. I dont think thats representive of swedish health care tho, i am kind of a cheerfull guy so most drs think i cant have anything cause i am able to laugh, unless they play the depression card, then i can have that and nothing else

Thanks again.

[FYI777]

Originally Posted by zkt

"So, how important is it to use hcg shots in terms of testicle shrinkage? "
Eventually the testes will shrink on TRT. Usually reversable by replacing T treatment with hcg. HCG should be used only for a short time to resensitive the testes to LH.

Zkt I believe it is HMG which resensitizes the testis to LH which is the purpose of using HMG in males along with the HCG.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by troubledfinuser

Funny u should ask. My temp is 36.1 degree Celsius, bit on the low part :/ and my ph is also low at 6.2 (urine sample)

Most tests they are all in the planning or on the way. As for yr list i would gladly c it. Alltho i am not sure i can pay for them all (have to be selective). In sweden all testing is free if u dont go private, the trouble is convinsing the drs u require the testing, as every1 wants all tests they are not easily giving u tests for everything. Took me 4 different drs (more than a year) just to get sex hormones tested. I dont think thats representive of swedish health care tho, i am kind of a cheerfull guy so most drs think i cant have anything cause i am able to laugh, unless they play the depression card, then i can have that and nothing else

Thanks again.

That already tells me that you could at least try Armour thyroid.
Start with a dose of 30mg, increase bi-weekly by 30mg.
Stop increasing a dose when
your temperature reaches 36.7C
your heart beat is in vicinity of 100bpm, 90 is probably better nunmber
you reach 180mg (3grains)
halt dose increases when you feel bad (but hold rather long on existing dose),
if you have to ramp down slow
----------
when you reach 3 grains wait one month then increase another 30mg
stop when you reach 240mg (4 grains)
you have to get blood testing at this point
FreeT3
FreeT4
----------
above is what I did, now waiting for my blood test.
I had a adrenals backup with 5+5=10mg Cortef, I latter dropped Cortef
I am on 2+2grains of Armour, my temperature 36.5C (started with 36.0C)
-----------------------
to buy Armour Thyroid
http://www.antiaging-systems.com/ias...g/thyroid.html
-------------------------
Keep stash or Armour in case you want to ramp down, do not stop abruptly.
Read this site before you start:
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com...e-have-learned

[zkt]

Originally Posted by FYI777

Zkt I believe it is HMG which resensitizes the testis to LH which is the purpose of using HMG in males along with the HCG.

Human Menopausal Gonadotropin - hMG
Description: hMG is produced from a sterile preparation of placental glucoprotein urine of post-menopausal women. The hMG is purified by proprietary chromatographic techniques.
Source: Urine of post-menopausal women
Physical Appearance: Sterile Filtered White lyophilized (freeze-dried) powder.
Formulation: The hMG was lyophilized from a concentrated (1mg/ml) solution with no additives.
Solubility: It is recommended to reconstitute the lyophilized hMG in sterile 18M-cm H2O not less than 100µg/ml, which can then be further diluted to other aqueous solutions.
Stability: Lyophilized hMG although stable at room temperature for 3 weeks, should be stored desiccated below -18 C. Upon reconstitution hMG should be stored at 4 C between 2-7 days and for future use below -18 C. For long term storage it is recommended to add a carrier protein (0.1% HSA or BSA). Please prevent freeze-thaw cycles.
Purity: Greater than 98.0% as determined by: (a) Analysis by RP-HPLC. (b) Anion-exchange FPLC. (c) Analysis by reducing and non-reducing SDS-PAGE Silver Stained gel.
Biological Activity: ProSpec's hMG conforms the following activities: 100IU/mg of FSH and 100IU/mg LH.
Contaminents: Free of: HbsAg, Hepatitis B surface antigen and Hormones to HIV, Hepatitis C and HIV.
Protein content: Protein quantitation was carried out by two independent methods: UV spectroscopy at 280 nm.Analysis by RP-HPLC, using a calibrated solution of hMG as a Reference Standard.
Usage: This material is offered for research, laboratory or further manufacturing purposes.

http://www.cytoshop.com/products/hormones/hMG.aspx

All and all you get the same effect as far as T production goes.

[troubledfinuser]

Originally Posted by JanSz

That already tells me that you could at least try Armour thyroid.
Start with a dose of 30mg, increase bi-weekly by 30mg.
Stop increasing a dose when
your temperature reaches 36.7C
your heart beat is in vicinity of 100bpm, 90 is probably better nunmber
you reach 180mg (3grains)
halt dose increases when you feel bad (but hold rather long on existing dose),
if you have to ramp down slow
----------
when you reach 3 grains wait one month then increase another 30mg
stop when you reach 240mg (4 grains)
you have to get blood testing at this point
FreeT3
FreeT4
----------
above is what I did, now waiting for my blood test.
I had a adrenals backup with 5+5=10mg Cortef, I latter dropped Cortef
I am on 2+2grains of Armour, my temperature 36.5C (started with 36.0C)
-----------------------
to buy Armour Thyroid
http://www.antiaging-systems.com/ias...g/thyroid.html
-------------------------
Keep stash or Armour in case you want to ramp down, do not stop abruptly.
Read this site before you start:
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com...e-have-learned

First of i want to submit my tests so far as per below.

s-prolactin 7.8 (3-13)
s-fsh 3.3 (1.0-12.5)
s-lh 2.1 A (1.2-9.6)
s-östradiol <150 (unsensitive e2 test i guess have to redo this one) also no lab ref.
s-dheas 9.5 B (4.3-12)
s-shbg 40 (20-50)
s-testosterone 12 (10-30
s-testosterone bioactive 5.2 (6.3-16)
tsh 1.0 (0.1-4.8)

Thats all tests ive got so far but redoing all tests soon with some new ones aswell incl total estrogen, sensitive östradiol (E2) and free t3 and t4 as i understand now that tsh alone is no good indicator of thyroid conditions.

As to u suggesting i have a low / hypo thyroid. How / if would that affect my low testosterone? is there a connection ? also the lh and fsh values are low, is there a connection there to?

Endo also suggested an MRI for pituary tumor check.

My symptoms are: very low energy levels, very low libido, weak erections. no stamina when doing sports or tough activities in general also i have testicle atrophy that dont hurt but it feels strange sometimes and cold scrotum. Also bit low in general on bad days.

Thanks again for all input.

[zkt]

"As to u suggesting i have a low / hypo thyroid. How / if would that affect my low testosterone? is there a connection ? also the lh and fsh values are low, is there a connection there to? "
good question. I`m not aware of a connection btwn the tryroid and HPG axis, except that everything effects everything else in general. Now the adrenals- sure theres a connection there.How bout somebody outlining the connection between the HPG axis the the thyroid once and for all.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by troubledfinuser

First of i want to submit my tests so far as per below.

s-prolactin 7.8 (3-13)
s-fsh 3.3 (1.0-12.5)
s-lh 2.1 A (1.2-9.6)
s-östradiol <150 (unsensitive e2 test i guess have to redo this one) also no lab ref.
s-dheas 9.5 B (4.3-12)
s-shbg 40 (20-50)
s-testosterone 12 (10-30
s-testosterone bioactive 5.2 (6.3-16)
tsh 1.0 (0.1-4.8)

Thats all tests ive got so far but redoing all tests soon with some new ones aswell incl total estrogen, sensitive östradiol (E2) and free t3 and t4 as i understand now that tsh alone is no good indicator of thyroid conditions.

As to u suggesting i have a low / hypo thyroid. How / if would that affect my low testosterone? is there a connection ? also the lh and fsh values are low, is there a connection there to?

Endo also suggested an MRI for pituary tumor check.

My symptoms are: very low energy levels, very low libido, weak erections. no stamina when doing sports or tough activities in general also i have testicle atrophy that dont hurt but it feels strange sometimes and cold scrotum. Also bit low in general on bad days.

Thanks again for all input.

-------------------------------------------------------
prolactin somewhat high
fsh, lh, TotalT and BioactiveT low----- most likely you are secondary, use HCG 100IU/day test after two months see you testosterone, FreeT and BAT levels. If you can, add HMG 75IU/day for first month or two (expensive).

Keep checking Estradiol sensitive E2 and thyroid (FreeT3 and FreeT4)
I post my long list of blood tests from time to time, if you want I may post it again.

Your SHBG is rather high it may possibly get lower when you do current adjustments.
Your moniker says that you used finasteride, check your DHT levels.

[troubledfinuser]

Originally Posted by JanSz

-------------------------------------------------------
prolactin somewhat high
fsh, lh, TotalT and BioactiveT low----- most likely you are secondary, use HCG 100IU/day test after two months see you testosterone, FreeT and BAT levels. If you can, add HMG 75IU/day for first month or two (expensive).

Keep checking Estradiol sensitive E2 and thyroid (FreeT3 and FreeT4)
I post my long list of blood tests from time to time, if you want I may post it again.

Your SHBG is rather high it may possibly get lower when you do current adjustments.
Your moniker says that you used finasteride, check your DHT levels.

Unfortenatly no endo will prescribe me hcg here, atleast no1 ive spoken to yet. This leaves me with Testogel.

Is it safe for me at this stage to start hrt with just Testogel for lets say 2 months without hcg shots just to c how i feel with a higher T level. Or will this ruin my chances of using hcg in the future (getting my balls back to size)?.

Would fertility be a problem if its not allrdy on a 2 month test period with testogel?

Is it likely when quitting testperiod of 2 month to have an even lower T level than today? Cause dont think my genitals can take that, allrdy have sume bumps on shaft from the crash when getting of propecia, and have recovered abit from that allrdy so dont wanna fall back to those levels. As i feel i had the onset of pyronies or similar at that time.

Realizes that nothing is set in stone but feel free to share thoughts and theories. I feel i have to try something soon cause its been 16 months or so allrdy since feeling good, And finding an endo here that would do hcg and anti E possibly and anti DHT will take a long time. So in short, is testogel a good starting point with regards to questions above?

Cheers