TRT Therapy

[tigerlilly]

Test was in the 300's and general practitioner referred me to a Urologist.
So the time is getting closer to my Dr's appointment, and yes I have done a ridiculous amount of research since last post. A few questions.

Does anyone have any experience dealing with a urologist? I spoke with an AA doctor and he pretty much told me I would not be happy. He told me that the guy would give me androgel (maybe) - no ancillary products, and have me right messed up in a few months. If this guy just wants to give me androgel and send me on my way - should I move on, or should I talk with him about what I know and have read. I'm in my early 30's and have been to a Dr about 3 times in the last 10 years, and have never really talked shop with these guys. I always assumed they would know what to do - but I'm not getting that impression after researching this condition.

What about my own TRT? If I am just looking to get back my libido, motivation, and energy - why can't I do this on my own? Most people who take steroids are abusing them in my opinion. Why couldn't I take a standard anabolic and design TRT around it?

I DO NOT want to lose my hair...I have a full head thankyou!

[farmerjohn]

I tried two urologists and they were both idiots in this area. Both thought Androgel was the way to go. They dont test for anything besides total T after youre on the androgel. They did test LH and FSH intially. I suggested HCG or clomid and was told they didnt work....bullshit. I tried to talk to one of them about testing E2 and he just said "my job is to get your T up, beyond that you'll have to find another doctor".

At 30 you need to find someone good. At your age you probably want to remain fertile right? You will need HCG. If thats not enough you may need to add T replacement to it but I bet at 30 HCG is all you will need. Also if youre secondary you should have a pituitary MRI and rule out hemochromatosis too.

I would go with an anti aging doc or one of the docs mentioned on this site like Shippen or Dr John if you can get to their offices.

[pcgizzmo]

What was wrong with the AA doc you were talking to? If it were me here is what I would do.

Go to www.allthingsmale.com See if you live close to him. If not then download his TRT Protocol.

Go see the Urologist or an Endocrinologist. Tell them you want to rule out all possible causes for your low T. Tell them you want to know if you are primary or secondary. Then see what they offer you in the form of TRT. If they say Andro gel that is fine if you want to try that first. Ask them about ancillary products. Also ask if they are going to give Androgel what is the starting dose they give and when they want you back to see them. Most Dr.'s do not give a large enough dose in the beginning to get you to the levels you need before your own production shuts down. Also you need to see them in a couple of weeks not the 6 most suggest. If they are not interested in ancillary products and want to start you out with a minimum dose of Androgel then find another Dr.

In all truthfullness AA docs are the best at this. Let the Endo our Uro make sure you don't have a tumor and let the AA doc give you TRT. It seems to me that most usually end up on shots.

As far as your hair. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Whether it starts thinning or not has alot to do with your genetics. DHT causes this and T converts to it. Some say more so w/transdermal delivery than shots.

You also don't want to start taking your own TRT. You can run into problems. TRT is a LIFE LONG undertaking. It is not something you want to start and stop like steroids. Taking TRT w/out monitoring and you are asking for trouble.

Paul

[tigerlilly]

Thanx for the responses..good info.

I'm definitely going to the Uro. I have an appointment and I want to make sure that I don't have any contraindications etc..like you all mentioned. My GP basically said "this is the guy you want to talk to" - so I'm not sure if he is educated in this therapy or not - maybe he is. IF not I will definitely see an AA doc..as I feel I have a fairly good grasp after all of the research I've done lately..THE BIG PROBLEM with an AA doc though is the initial up front cost...gambling that my insurance will foot the bill. I have a lot going on and don't have much disposable income right now - so this makes a doctor that can just write me the appropriate scripts very attractive. Why don't AA docs work with insurance - this is a bit troubling to me - If it's a legitimate condition (which I feel it is).

As far as a typical synth anabolic like primo etc... I was under the impression that people (BB's) were taking supra physiological doses in order to achieve maximum muscle growth. These large levels are what leads to teste shutdown, side effects etc.... BUT what if you take a much smaller dose with the plan of achieving more energy, libido, and recovery from hard workouts - but are not necessarily looking to build giant muscles? I mean seriously - I do endurance training, and sports - so the lighter I am the better....but that would just be a side benefit. My main concern is energy and libido. Some days I feel I can barely keep my eyes open at work, and I sit at a desk all day. This has been going on for a year....I'm over it.

[farmerjohn]

If you have hypogonadism at age 30 then your insurance should cover your treatment. You have something wrong, you are not trying to reverse a normal aging process. You can probably submint the AA docs bill but if he is not on your plan you may not get anything from the insurance after deductibles. Thats what I have found. If your company has a flex plan you can plan ahead and recoup some of the cost via tax savings by putting enough aside to pay the doctor bills for next year anyway.

[pcgizzmo]

Originally Posted by tigerlilly

Thanx for the responses..good info.

I'm definitely going to the Uro. I have an appointment and I want to make sure that I don't have any contraindications etc..like you all mentioned. My GP basically said "this is the guy you want to talk to" - so I'm not sure if he is educated in this therapy or not - maybe he is. IF not I will definitely see an AA doc..as I feel I have a fairly good grasp after all of the research I've done lately..THE BIG PROBLEM with an AA doc though is the initial up front cost...gambling that my insurance will foot the bill. I have a lot going on and don't have much disposable income right now - so this makes a doctor that can just write me the appropriate scripts very attractive. Why don't AA docs work with insurance - this is a bit troubling to me - If it's a legitimate condition (which I feel it is).

As far as a typical synth anabolic like primo etc... I was under the impression that people (BB's) were taking supra physiological doses in order to achieve maximum muscle growth. These large levels are what leads to teste shutdown, side effects etc.... BUT what if you take a much smaller dose with the plan of achieving more energy, libido, and recovery from hard workouts - but are not necessarily looking to build giant muscles? I mean seriously - I do endurance training, and sports - so the lighter I am the better....but that would just be a side benefit. My main concern is energy and libido. Some days I feel I can barely keep my eyes open at work, and I sit at a desk all day. This has been going on for a year....I'm over it.

Couple of things come to mind I want to mention.

1. You can't just take a small dose of T. When it is done you have to take enough for a full replacement dose. What happens is even on a small dose your body will notice this and shut down the HPTA. It may not be the first week but it WILL happen. When it does if you are not taking enough T to make up the difference from your already low levels plus what you need to get you feeling better you will feel like run over dog shit. No kidding. It has happened to me as well as others on the board. It will then take 2-3 days for you to either increase your T dose and start feeling better or stop the T and let your body start up again.

2. Are you sleeping at night?

Paul

[farmerjohn]

Originally Posted by pcgizzmo

Couple of things come to mind I want to mention.

1. You can't just take a small dose of T. When it is done you have to take enough for a full replacement dose. What happens is even on a small dose your body will notice this and shut down the HPTA. It may not be the first week but it WILL happen. When it does if you are not taking enough T to make up the difference from your already low levels plus what you need to get you feeling better you will feel like run over dog shit. No kidding. It has happened to me as well as others on the board. It will then take 2-3 days for you to either increase your T dose and start feeling better or stop the T and let your body start up ag

Well said and exactly right. I would not try to self treat for this. Its a lifetime commitment and you are going to need a doctor at some point.

[tigerlilly]

Fair enough. I guess I meant "small" in relation to what a bodybuilder takes. See one of the things that has me confused is that I thought steroids were originally developed for muscle wasting disease, and anemic type problems...but maybe I'm wrong - maybe they were meant for sports. I mean - when a Dr. prescribes deca-durabolin or some other anabolic for an HIV patient...are they also giving them arimidex, hcg, clomid, etc...in conjuction? I have heard that if you are under 40 you MUST cycle any androgen. An AA doctor told me this...and if you use physiological doses - then your teste should not shut down. I have also heard the exact opposite, another AA doctor told me that you have to use ancillary drugs..but he mentioned cycling also. I am 34 by the way. I've been doing this investigation so that when I do make the jump...I'm not destroying my body. (I still want to keep my hair). ANYWAY. But we have to realize that this is still a fairly new field. Athletes, and patients have been using Steroids since the 60's...Did these people use anti-e's back then?....Probably not. Arnold has a full head of hair, and looks great at 60+ years old..probably 100 times better than what my father looks like...and my father is younger. Maybe it's all genetics...sorry I'm rambling, and got off topic.

1. If I can take HCG and get me straight - that would be perfect.
2. Steroids stimulate red blood cell production which in turns help muscles recover, and gives you energy.
3. If I took very low doses of steroids....say 10mg a day...or 50-100ml a week for 8 weeks, and then layed off for 6-8 weeks, and then back on.....I'm not convinced this would shut down my testes. Is there incontrovertable proof of this or is it person to person?

Originally Posted by pcgizzmo

Couple of things come to mind I want to mention.

1. You can't just take a small dose of T. When it is done you have to take enough for a full replacement dose. What happens is even on a small dose your body will notice this and shut down the HPTA. It may not be the first week but it WILL happen. When it does if you are not taking enough T to make up the difference from your already low levels plus what you need to get you feeling better you will feel like run over dog shit. No kidding. It has happened to me as well as others on the board. It will then take 2-3 days for you to either increase your T dose and start feeling better or stop the T and let your body start up again.

2. Are you sleeping at night?

Paul

[Normandy]

You're not convinced that it will shut you down because you just don't understand how sensitive the negative feedback is on our hormonal system. If you want proof (as in research) it abounds. If you want personal proof from many people, it too is a'plenty on this very forum.

I'd link you up to the above and help ease ur mind but Im walking out the door in about 3 min. Just do a forum search for masterp or masterpp. Somewhere on his posts I believe he was postulating a similar thing. In other words, hoping to add just a little testosterone and still not have it become suppressive.





-- Normandy

[Normandy]

Okay, I couldn't leave without giving you at least better directions.
Do a member search for Masterp, then find a thread that he started labed How does the HPTA work


And if anyone can teach me how to inbedd someone else's thread on here like a link, please let me know.




-- Normandy

[tigerlilly]

Sounds good I'll check it out. THere seems to be conflicting views though. I can show you an AA site that specifically states that a person under 40 must cycle hrt therapy. Why would this be? Is it to protect fertility?

[farmerjohn]

Yes the cycling is to protect fertility and is meant to keep the balls from shutting down too long. I think you will find most here thing its better to never let them shut down by taking HCG and TRT at the same time all the time or just HCG alone all the time.

I dont see that cycling contradicts anyway. Cycling in fact is done in admission that adding external T will shut down your HPTA and testicles. You can not raise your T level for long by adding T. Your HPTA will tell the testes to make less T and you will be right back where you started. As you add more T in another effort to raise levels the same thing will happen until you get to the point that your testicles are completely shut down and then you continue to add more T.

[farmerjohn]

Yes the cycling is to protect fertility and is meant to keep the balls from shutting down too long. I think you will find most here thing its better to never let them shut down by taking HCG and TRT at the same time all the time or just HCG alone all the time.

I dont see that cycling contradicts anyway. Cycling in fact is done in admission that adding external T will shut down your HPTA and testicles. You can not raise your T level for long by adding T. Your HPTA will tell the testes to make less T and you will be right back where you started. As you add more T in another effort to raise levels the same thing will happen until you get to the point that your testicles are completely shut down and then you continue to add more T.

[farmerjohn]

Yes the cycling is to protect fertility and is meant to keep the balls from shutting down too long. I think you will find most here thing its better to never let them shut down by taking HCG and TRT at the same time all the time or just HCG alone all the time.

I dont see that cycling contradicts anyway. Cycling in fact is done in admission that adding external T will shut down your HPTA and testicles. You can not raise your T level for long by adding T. Your HPTA will tell the testes to make less T and you will be right back where you started. As you add more T in another effort to raise levels the same thing will happen until you get to the point that your testicles are completely shut down and then you continue to add more T.

[pcgizzmo]

Originally Posted by tigerlilly

Fair enough. I guess I meant "small" in relation to what a bodybuilder takes. See one of the things that has me confused is that I thought steroids were originally developed for muscle wasting disease, and anemic type problems...but maybe I'm wrong - maybe they were meant for sports. I mean - when a Dr. prescribes deca-durabolin or some other anabolic for an HIV patient...are they also giving them arimidex, hcg, clomid, etc...in conjuction? I have heard that if you are under 40 you MUST cycle any androgen. An AA doctor told me this...and if you use physiological doses - then your teste should not shut down. I have also heard the exact opposite, another AA doctor told me that you have to use ancillary drugs..but he mentioned cycling also. I am 34 by the way. I've been doing this investigation so that when I do make the jump...I'm not destroying my body. (I still want to keep my hair). ANYWAY. But we have to realize that this is still a fairly new field. Athletes, and patients have been using Steroids since the 60's...Did these people use anti-e's back then?....Probably not. Arnold has a full head of hair, and looks great at 60+ years old..probably 100 times better than what my father looks like...and my father is younger. Maybe it's all genetics...sorry I'm rambling, and got off topic.

1. If I can take HCG and get me straight - that would be perfect.
2. Steroids stimulate red blood cell production which in turns help muscles recover, and gives you energy.
3. If I took very low doses of steroids....say 10mg a day...or 50-100ml a week for 8 weeks, and then layed off for 6-8 weeks, and then back on.....I'm not convinced this would shut down my testes. Is there incontrovertable proof of this or is it person to person?

Here is a history of steroids http://www.steroid.com/ It does seem they were developed for the purpose of muscle enhancement and made their way to the medical community as an afterthought.

I have heard of cycling TRT but only at one online anti-aging site. I have never heard of an anti-aging Dr. that is well known say it and I have not heard of to many guys on here that do it either. If you are doing steroids that is a given to give your body a break from the high doses used and also to recover the HPTA before it is blunted for to long.

Keeping your hair is partly genetic and how your body converts T to DHT. There are drugs that can help with this but they can be bad for you.

5 mg of Andro Gel shut me down in 3 days. 100ml a week is a starting dose for T cyp. and usually average dose for TRT. Trust me on this. There is not way to accurately supplement Testosterone.

10 mg a day of what? There is no Ester of T that I know of that has a half life of one day. This means that they all will last at least 48 hours in the blood. This would be T Acetate. All the others have longer half lives.

There is tons of proof on HPTA shut down. Just switch over to the bodybuilding side and ask those guys about shut down. They will tell you even at low doses.

You might try HCG to see what happens. With some people it works and with others it does not.

Paul