Want to start TRT and HCG

[s0b]

Can someone help me, i am complete noob and want to try TRT and maybe afterwards some HCG.

My medical history profile

took finasteride 4 yrs ago
sufferred overtraining 2 yrs ago
adrenal fatigue 1 and a half yr ago(still trying to come over it)

took hydrocortisone , had to quit because of side effects -hypothyroidism,headaches, fluid retention etc etc

now as my adrenal fatigue is recovering i find my self to a standpoint. Everytime i overdo it, that is walk a bit more, or ride my bike or eat something with a higher glycemic index i get hypoglycemias and fatigue for days.

I think that cortisol levels are better but testo is pretty low still, plus my balls are very shrunk

im only 29 yrs old
had nod had decent sex for 5 years now

Where can i get info for TRT and HCG. Where can i obtain HCG? Do i need nolva or arimidex to combine with this?

Would HGH play any role in my recovery (if possible)

latest blood levels

TSH 2.81 (0.5-3)
free T3 (2.72 (2.3-4.5)
free T4 1.36 (0.9-1.7)
hct : 39%
wbc 9800
rbc 6.5 x10 *6
SGOT 15
SGPT 17
ALKP 72

Test :3.56 (4-9)
free testo 17.8 (8.7-54.7)
FSH : 3
LH : 4.9

Ok as you can see my fsh is low normal but my testo is very low . I know i dont have albumin or shbg levels but last time i checked they were right in the mid. Estradiol etc etc are all in mid ranges as well, yet i think the estradiol tests i do are not so sensitive. Somehow my balls have suffered a major size decline lately (woke up one day and they were 1/2 of their previous size)- thats been on for 3 months now and i cant do anything all this time since my cortisol levels were so low.

Anyways i think that the time to introduce TRT is approaching.
However i dont know how to do it, and i cant travel abroad to find any good doc.

The best i found here simply told me to take TESTIM GEL.
Thats it? What happens afterwards? When i have to quit the treatment? What happens if my estrogen levels increase?

Pls advice, give some links or if you know of any good book that has such info on TRT pls say so

[BrianEE93]

Were are you from s0b? If there is a problem with testosterone, it is usually a lifelong thing not something you do for a while and just quite. Can you post some more of the ranges on your tests-especially the LH and FSH? That will help the people here give you some advise.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by s0b

Can someone help me, i am complete noob and want to try TRT and maybe afterwards some HCG.

My medical history profile

took finasteride 4 yrs ago
sufferred overtraining 2 yrs ago
adrenal fatigue 1 and a half yr ago(still trying to come over it)

took hydrocortisone , had to quit because of side effects -hypothyroidism,headaches, fluid retention etc etc

now as my adrenal fatigue is recovering i find my self to a standpoint. Everytime i overdo it, that is walk a bit more, or ride my bike or eat something with a higher glycemic index i get hypoglycemias and fatigue for days.

I think that cortisol levels are better but testo is pretty low still, plus my balls are very shrunk

im only 29 yrs old
had nod had decent sex for 5 years now

Where can i get info for TRT and HCG. Where can i obtain HCG? Do i need nolva or arimidex to combine with this?

Would HGH play any role in my recovery (if possible)

latest blood levels

TSH 2.81 (0.5-3)
free T3 (2.72 (2.3-4.5)
free T4 1.36 (0.9-1.7)
hct : 39%
wbc 9800
rbc 6.5 x10 *6
SGOT 15
SGPT 17
ALKP 72

Test :3.56 (4-9)
free testo 17.8 (8.7-54.7)
FSH : 3
LH : 4.9

Ok as you can see my fsh is low normal but my testo is very low . I know i dont have albumin or shbg levels but last time i checked they were right in the mid. Estradiol etc etc are all in mid ranges as well, yet i think the estradiol tests i do are not so sensitive. Somehow my balls have suffered a major size decline lately (woke up one day and they were 1/2 of their previous size)- thats been on for 3 months now and i cant do anything all this time since my cortisol levels were so low.

Anyways i think that the time to introduce TRT is approaching.
However i dont know how to do it, and i cant travel abroad to find any good doc.

The best i found here simply told me to take TESTIM GEL.
Thats it? What happens afterwards? When i have to quit the treatment? What happens if my estrogen levels increase?

Pls advice, give some links or if you know of any good book that has such info on TRT pls say so

Post all your available tests.
Specify if blood, saliva or urine.
Provide name, value, range, units,

Sounds like you are outside of the USA, where are you?

At this time I would not use Testim Gel.
-------------------------
Test :3.56 (4-9)
free testo 17.8 (8.7-54.7) <---this test is always wrong
FSH : 3
LH : 4.9
-------------------------
Withg this LH value you still may be secondary, that is testicle may be capable but are not getting enough signal.

You should start with HCG
1000-1250iu/E3D
retest after 2 months.
Do not buy 10000iu HCH, last too long, isues about shelf life.
Depending on your dose, 5000iu may be too large.

TotalTest
SHBG
Albumin
DHT
E2-ultrasensitive or better 24hr urine test

Take your SHBG & TT and use chart
you have to have FreeT(160-300) on that chart
chart is on post #41
Jan's BloodTest April13/2007 - Page 2

read the all pages on above thread
-----------------------
Post on what effect you got from HCG theraphy
You may increase to 6000iu/week average but keep E3D schedule

On higher HCG doses you may be getting into E2 problems, may not be worth it.
You would then stay at max HCG dose that you can control with 2mg/week(max) of Arimidex/Liqudex/Anastrozole

You need to be at about top range in DHT and not that much more (or less).
High DHT use T shots
Low DHT use transdermal T to raise it.

Lots of stuff you can buy over internet, but remember to do good testing,
without testing you will not succed.

_____________

TSH 2.81 (0.5-3)
free T3 (2.72 (2.3-4.5)
free T4 1.36 (0.9-1.7)

get also
rT3
and
Thyroid Peroxidase and Thyroglobulin Antibodies

freeT4=1.36(0.9-1.7) 57.50 % low on FT4
freeT3=2.72(2.3-4.5) 19.09 % low on FT3

You should evaluate your adrenals first and carefully
start using Armour Thyroid to get your numbers higher
watch your resting pulse (not over 80) and body temp (36.6 -37)C desirable, 36.6C probably the best.
-------------------

[s0b]

Why do you say that free testo is always wrong?

I have tested so many times it always comes around there 17-18 pg/ml. SHBG .dht and albumin levels i dont have this time, because didnt have the cash to pay for all those tests but i guess they are pretty constant like last month since symptoms didnt improve.

ok lets go again with medical history and ranges

Since i took finasteride i suffered from testicular size decrease, lower libido, shrunken penis, smaller volume of ejaculate etc etc.

Then 1 yr later i started to weight train in order to increase my dropping testo levels from finasteride.
Finally got to suffer from overtraining, that means testo levels dropped and noradrenaline cortisol rose.

Recovered and restarted weight training (squats,sprints, plyometrics) and got into overtraining again.
2 months after overtraining progressed to adrenal fatigue

8 months later started to recover

then i tried Hydrocortisone but had bad luck with it, had just finished a course of Cipro antibiotics and wasnt supposed to jump to steroids before the drug cleared out, yet without proper doc supervision thats what happens.

Now im somewhere between adrenal fatigue and HPA axis suppresion (morning cortisol is like 10-15 while it should be between 20-25), have long term finasteride sides with low libido, small testes, small balls and constant pressure headaches and head ringing >> thats from cipro antibiotic , its a killer

I know i am supposed to recover from adrenal fatigue before progressing to treating my gonads but i wanna be ready for it.

now regarding ranges.

Testo 3.56 ng/ml (4-9)
free testo 17.8 pg/ml (8.7-54.7)
FSH 3.0 mIU/ml (2-12)
LH 4.9 mIU/ml (2-8.5)
E2-estradiol 26.5pg/ml <50

Tsh 2.81 μIU/ml (0.5-3)
fT3 2.72 pg/ml (2.4-4.5)
fT4 1.36 ng/dl (0.93-1.7)

I tried armour half a grain (just for the heck of it) it send me to sleep very tired didnt feel any better, so probably my cortisol is still low.

Anyways, quoting your sayings

You should start with HCG
1000-1250iu/E3D
retest after 2 months.
Do not buy 10000iu HCH, last too long, isues about shelf life.
Depending on your dose, 5000iu may be too large.

What is E3D/ ??? >>> every 3 days?
1000-1250iU? ok

i was told by some local body builders to take 2500 every other day for about 16 days and at the same time take a constant night dose of nolvadex and clomid, and during the day some Aromasin.

Isnt that too much? I have bad drug history, took cipro and hydrocortisone and almost blew my head off. Still having serious sides, 6 months later like allergies to food, pressure headache, pulsations in my head, visual problems, fuck this cipro was a killer. Was hospitalized and docs thought i was insane, they couldnt find anything and i had blur vision, depersonalisation didnt know where i was for days.

I m from greece, used to write here in the past. Wanna return to the states if i dont find someone to help me here. Used to live in Michigan, was told to visit dr. john, but i dont think previous finasteride users had any success there... Anyways i got to try, and do something shrunk penis and balls at this age is terrible.

By the way, wanted to ask this, since my Lh levels spike quite high (4.9) is there a possibility that my testicular receptors or cells in there have become somewhat damaged or desensitized from finasteride? I mean 4.9 lh on one hand and so low testo on the other 3.56!!!! Does it make sense?? And last but not least, does HCG help such a long time after drug use? I mean its 4 yrs since i took finasteride.

Someone told me to take 3 small post cycle therapies...

Dont know ..

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by s0b

Why do you say that free testo is always wrong?

I have tested so many times it always comes around there 17-18 pg/ml. SHBG .dht and albumin levels i dont have this time, because didnt have the cash to pay for all those tests but i guess they are pretty constant like last month since symptoms didnt improve.

ok lets go again with medical history and ranges

Since i took finasteride i suffered from testicular size decrease, lower libido, shrunken penis, smaller volume of ejaculate etc etc.

Then 1 yr later i started to weight train in order to increase my dropping testo levels from finasteride.
Finally got to suffer from overtraining, that means testo levels dropped and noradrenaline cortisol rose.

Recovered and restarted weight training (squats,sprints, plyometrics) and got into overtraining again.
2 months after overtraining progressed to adrenal fatigue

8 months later started to recover

then i tried Hydrocortisone but had bad luck with it, had just finished a course of Cipro antibiotics and wasnt supposed to jump to steroids before the drug cleared out, yet without proper doc supervision thats what happens.

Now im somewhere between adrenal fatigue and HPA axis suppresion (morning cortisol is like 10-15 while it should be between 20-25), have long term finasteride sides with low libido, small testes, small balls and constant pressure headaches and head ringing >> thats from cipro antibiotic , its a killer

I know i am supposed to recover from adrenal fatigue before progressing to treating my gonads but i wanna be ready for it.

now regarding ranges.

Testo 3.56 ng/ml (4-9)
free testo 17.8 pg/ml (8.7-54.7)
FSH 3.0 mIU/ml (2-12)
LH 4.9 mIU/ml (2-8.5)
E2-estradiol 26.5pg/ml <50

Tsh 2.81 μIU/ml (0.5-3)
fT3 2.72 pg/ml (2.4-4.5)
fT4 1.36 ng/dl (0.93-1.7)

I tried armour half a grain (just for the heck of it) it send me to sleep very tired didnt feel any better, so probably my cortisol is still low.

Anyways, quoting your sayings

You should start with HCG
1000-1250iu/E3D
retest after 2 months.
Do not buy 10000iu HCH, last too long, isues about shelf life.
Depending on your dose, 5000iu may be too large.

What is E3D/ ??? >>> every 3 days?
1000-1250iU? ok

i was told by some local body builders to take 2500 every other day for about 16 days and at the same time take a constant night dose of nolvadex and clomid, and during the day some Aromasin.

Isnt that too much? I have bad drug history, took cipro and hydrocortisone and almost blew my head off. Still having serious sides, 6 months later like allergies to food, pressure headache, pulsations in my head, visual problems, fuck this cipro was a killer. Was hospitalized and docs thought i was insane, they couldnt find anything and i had blur vision, depersonalisation didnt know where i was for days.

I m from greece, used to write here in the past. Wanna return to the states if i dont find someone to help me here. Used to live in Michigan, was told to visit dr. john, but i dont think previous finasteride users had any success there... Anyways i got to try, and do something shrunk penis and balls at this age is terrible.

By the way, wanted to ask this, since my Lh levels spike quite high (4.9) is there a possibility that my testicular receptors or cells in there have become somewhat damaged or desensitized from finasteride? I mean 4.9 lh on one hand and so low testo on the other 3.56!!!! Does it make sense?? And last but not least, does HCG help such a long time after drug use? I mean its 4 yrs since i took finasteride.

Someone told me to take 3 small post cycle therapies...

Dont know ..

Just think .............
Testo 3.56 ng/ml (4-9)
free testo 17.8 pg/ml (8.7-54.7)

How is it possible for you to have enough of FreeT if you are below range on TotalT.
Do not do freeT analysis, always get TT & SHBG and use chart to find out FreeT.
Eventually you want to have FreeT(160-300), closer to 300 the better but not more, always use chart.
--------------------------
You are very low on thyroid, FreeT3, but it looks like you will have to deal with Adrenal Fatigue first.

If you tried Hydrocortisone but had bad luck with it,
you need good doctor to help you.
Cortef have to be ramped up real slow, if you are succesfull, stay on it for a year or two years before you think of ramping down. Slow process.

Study this site, contact Phil,

search: Cortef site:Stop The Thyroid Madness » Index Page

search: Cortef site:www.stopthethyroidmadness.com - Yahoo! Search Results

replace word cortef with other key words that may be of intrest to you.

You may want to try again Cortef, this time by the book, you may succede.
There is a web page (on stopthethyroidmadness, I cant locate it now) that gives you precise schedule of ramping on Cortef. Try as a goal 20g/day or 30 mg/day

----------------------------------------------------

What is E3D/ ??? >>> every 3 days?
Yes, every three days, couple guys tried and that is best schedule for HCG use when object is to have testis produce testosterone. That aplies only to secondaries. Your LH=4.9, good possiblity that your testis may produce T. You have to try, and see what happen.
If you do not raise your TotalT that way, you are primary.
------------------------------------------------------
Since you are in Greece, you may be able to buy all kind of medicine but remember to do proper and rather frequent blood tests, otherwise you will run into problems.
There is a controversy about (good) Estradiol testing. Estradiol vary greatly.
The lattest is that 24hr urine testing gives better grip on E2 levels.
-----------------------------------
You have to decide what you are going to do, steroids, cycles, finasteride, get totally screwed in the process.

Often finasteride users have very low DHT, even if they stop using it.
It is important to have it checked and to have DHT at about top range or only slightly higher.
---------------------------------

[s0b]

I am very hesitant to use corfet or HC. I already did it once and ended up in the ER.

See, what was wrong with me initially, i had stress axis suppresion without any drop in blood pressure or aldosterone affection. So while i had all signs of adrenal fatigue there was no problem with my pressure- i didnt need any mineralcorticoid action therefore. Actually my adrenal fatigue was caused by overproduction of noradrenaline and drop of testosterone due to overtraining.

If you could see my cortisol saliva test you would see a normal morning cortisol and thereafter a huge drop after 10am. Total daily cortisol production was 28nm (range is 23-45) i think in diagnostech testing.

That means that my HPA functioned normally but due to the high and steady noradrenaline production cortisol was burnt off and made me feel like sick. Also called neurasthenia.

Dosing with HC made me feel very sick. I started on 2.5 then 5 then kept on a steady dose of 10 or 12.5 mg max. I dont know however, but suddenly one day i started having headaches, took tests and saw i became very hypothyroid TSH 4.86, free T3 2.0 (2.4-4.5) is the range for FreeT3.

Since then i had to quit HC. My endocrinologist prof told me that HC always causes hypothyroidism, it was used in the past to help people with hyperthyroidism and i should have known that, yet some people manage to overcome it without symptoms. I never knew that was the case.

Anyways i think its very difficult to use HC unless there is strict evidence that your body doesnt have the ability to produce it.. 6 months have gone by and i still havent got the energy to walk properly. My morning cortisol production has dropped to 10nM from 21-22nM and it may take very long to get back in track.

Regarding free T. I dont understand how you can estimate it?

Where is this chart you are referring to? I think that the lab uses a chart as well based on SHBG or and albumin levels (not sure about the albumin part).

Give me some link to see the chart

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by s0b

I am very hesitant to use corfet or HC. I already did it once and ended up in the ER.

See, what was wrong with me initially, i had stress axis suppresion without any drop in blood pressure or aldosterone affection. So while i had all signs of adrenal fatigue there was no problem with my pressure- i didnt need any mineralcorticoid action therefore. Actually my adrenal fatigue was caused by overproduction of noradrenaline and drop of testosterone due to overtraining.

If you could see my cortisol saliva test you would see a normal morning cortisol and thereafter a huge drop after 10am. Total daily cortisol production was 28nm (range is 23-45) i think in diagnostech testing.

That means that my HPA functioned normally but due to the high and steady noradrenaline production cortisol was burnt off and made me feel like sick. Also called neurasthenia.

Dosing with HC made me feel very sick. I started on 2.5 then 5 then kept on a steady dose of 10 or 12.5 mg max. I dont know however, but suddenly one day i started having headaches, took tests and saw i became very hypothyroid TSH 4.86, free T3 2.0 (2.4-4.5) is the range for FreeT3.

Since then i had to quit HC. My endocrinologist prof told me that HC always causes hypothyroidism, it was used in the past to help people with hyperthyroidism and i should have known that, yet some people manage to overcome it without symptoms. I never knew that was the case.

Anyways i think its very difficult to use HC unless there is strict evidence that your body doesnt have the ability to produce it.. 6 months have gone by and i still havent got the energy to walk properly. My morning cortisol production has dropped to 10nM from 21-22nM and it may take very long to get back in track.

Regarding free T. I dont understand how you can estimate it?

Where is this chart you are referring to? I think that the lab uses a chart as well based on SHBG or and albumin levels (not sure about the albumin part).

Give me some link to see the chart

When dealing with finistride you need to examin the damage that it can cause at the cellular level. My from past research it some how increases a person estrogen sensitity by super charging the receptors. It may alter the dopamine receptors in the brain causing cellular resistance to specific neurotransmitters. Again this is only speculation but seems to be a reoccuring trend. We have a few guys that have expereinced this and from further examing their cellular fuction we found huge imbalances in way cells communicate with another. This can be correct by finding the proper balance of nutrients to restabilish the proper fluidity between the cells. When examing a person one needs to look at the total persons history, diet, and pass drug use. TYpically you fall into the over train and over sympthetic domaince that bodys never kicked out. Eventually resulting in to insulin resistance and alteration at the cellular level affecting hormone, neurons abilitry to communicate. We have a few people that have your same profile, but not that extreme. We are running indept test and are starting to see a specific pattern which can over time be brought back into balance by the proper combination of HRT, lifestyle, and nutritional intervention..

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by hardasnails1973

When dealing with finistride you need to examin the damage that it can cause at the cellular level. My from past research it some how increases a person estrogen sensitity by super charging the receptors. It may alter the dopamine receptors in the brain causing cellular resistance to specific neurotransmitters. Again this is only speculation but seems to be a reoccuring trend. We have a few guys that have expereinced this and from further examing their cellular fuction we found huge imbalances in way cells communicate with another. This can be correct by finding the proper balance of nutrients to restabilish the proper fluidity between the cells. When examing a person one needs to look at the total persons history, diet, and pass drug use. TYpically you fall into the over train and over sympthetic domaince that bodys never kicked out. Eventually resulting in to insulin resistance and alteration at the cellular level affecting hormone, neurons abilitry to communicate. We have a few people that have your same profile, but not that extreme. We are running indept test and are starting to see a specific pattern which can over time be brought back into balance by the proper combination of HRT, lifestyle, and nutritional intervention..

Good lead.
At least
Essential and Metabolic Fatty Acids Assessment
and
Elemental Analysis
would help greatly.

There is lots of people that have too much omega-3 and not enought omega-6,
just the other way
as in 60% of population.
.
.

[1cc]

Originally Posted by s0b

I m from greece, used to write here in the past. Wanna return to the states if i dont find someone to help me here. Used to live in Michigan, was told to visit dr. john, but i dont think previous finasteride users had any success there... Anyways i got to try, and do something shrunk penis and balls at this age is terrible.

You need to have proper labs and treatment done in a methodical manner by a doctor who knows what he is doing. If you are fortunate enough to see Dr. John personally in Michigan, then that would be the best and quickest way for you to make progress and recover. Hopefully it will not take longer than a few office visits to determine appropriate treatment.

It's a shame that you took HC with Cipro and had a negative experience. Our own bodies produce cortisol, which is HC. You mentioned being short of money to do labs, which will be a problem.

You mentioned high norepinephrine. Do you drink or eat a lot of sugar free foods that contain aspartame? Aspartame can cause an increase in norepinephrine. Did you by any chance drink or eat aspartame prior to your norepinephrine labs? That might explain the higher value.

Originally Posted by s0b

What is E3D/ ??? >>> every 3 days?
1000-1250iU? ok

i was told by some local body builders to take 2500 every other day for about 16 days and at the same time take a constant night dose of nolvadex and clomid, and during the day some Aromasin.

Do not take HCG at these high dosages. Be very careful with some of the "advice" you will get. FYI, HCG at 100iu per day (thats one hundred iu) should be sufficient.

[1cc]

I read some of your past threads and it definitely looks like you need TRT. I was also suprised by your DHEA-s labs. In a recent lab it is very low but in a previous lab it is high normal. When you stopped taking HC, did you stop it abruptly? If you have been taking HC for a while then you need to wean yourself off of it in order to give your own adrenals a chance to pick up production.

Where are you at at this time with your condition and treatment? Perhaps I can make some suggestions.