Advice needed for post steroid recovery

[clocker]

Hi,

I am in need to advice and have searched the internet far and wide and these forums seem to be the best ones out there so here goes...

I have done 3 courses of gear they were as follows:

1. 250mg Testosterone per week (sustanon) + 275mg per week of nandrolone decanoate 10 weeks

3 month break

2. 275mg of Andropen per week (various test esters) 10 weeks

4 month break

3. 275 mg of nandrolone decanoate per week for only 4 weeks stopped early due to side effects

This last course was ended early in mid-February.

I got the following sides from course 3:

• severe ED
  severe testicular shrinking
  penis was smaller

It is 9 months after cessation now and I am still feeling that things are not 100%. My balls are smaller than they were, but they did pop back somewhat, my erections are pretty much non-existent, even in the morning it is very hit and miss, and my penis has lost just over an inch in length.
I have been to two doctors and had blood tests done at both. One doctor physically examined me and said that my balls were within the normal range and he wouldnt have known that I'd been taking gear.

At the first test LH was well within normal and test was in the lower end of normal.

at the second doctor 8 weeks later he only tested testosterone and it was only just within the normal range.

Neither one would give me HCG with the second one giving me a referral to an endo after I showed him some printouts from the net on HCG's usage, but he stressed that since my test and LH levels were normal and my balls were within normal that it is unlikely that the endo would give me HCG just to "pump 'em up a bit".

Also, the loss in penis length is most concerning, I used to be well over 7inches approaching 8 and now it is only just over 6. Was this due to the third course were nandrolone shut down my test for well over 12 weeks and estrogen would have been through the roof, feminizing in a similar way that doctors do pre-op for a sex change to shrink the penis?

I just want to be back to normal and am sick of getting the run around with clueless doctors.

What should I do?

[clocker]

just to add, with the second doctor test, he tested for TSH and that was normal.

Also, I am 25, male BF around 18, 190 pounds.

[eeso]

doing deca on it's own is a big no no. it should clear your system after 18months.

until then, get on dermacrine sustain

[clocker]

Yeah I know I made a huge mistake, I paid for it badly.

So the Deca takes 18 months to stop having an effect? oh my what have I done.

This is the first time I have hear of dermacrine sustain. I have been taking tong kat which has made minor gains on libido and erections, but I'm still a fair way off base, but you guys think that dermacrine is the ticket then I'll have to try some.

What about HCG? I want my old nads and cock back.

[Matt Muscle]

Originally Posted by clocker

Yeah I know I made a huge mistake, I paid for it badly.

So the Deca takes 18 months to stop having an effect? oh my what have I done.

This is the first time I have hear of dermacrine sustain. I have been taking tong kat which has made minor gains on libido and erections, but I'm still a fair way off base, but you guys think that dermacrine is the ticket then I'll have to try some.

What about HCG? I want my old nads and cock back.

Do you know any of your test results?
hCG in your case is probably a waste of time. If your testes have regained most of their size, this is probably all hCG would have done. What may be of some help is a course of nolva, run for the appropriate time and tapered correctly.

[clocker]

I only saw my test results at the doctors and can give the description I did.

[Matt Muscle]

The problem with hCG is that it is supressive as well. So if your balls have regained size then perahps what is needed is more stimulation for the pituitary and hypothalamus.
A course of Nolvadex run for 3 months @20mgs per day and then tapered at a reduction of 2.5mgs per week could reinstate your HPTA function. The taper is extremely important.
If this does not work you may have caused some stress to your adrenal and thyriod and they may need kooking at. Intense weight training coupled with heavy cycles can stress the adrenal glands and thyriod. Which will then inhibit recovery of your testosterone.

[clocker]

Thyroid tested as ok.

So if your balls have regained size

Well they are bigger but I still feel that they aren't what they were.

Everyone seems to be suggesting nolvadex. I hope I can find a doctor that will help me, it is very hard in Australia. They all seem clueless.

[Recless]

Originally Posted by clocker

Thyroid tested as ok.

I would get yourself a copy of the lab tests Bro, just to be sure Free T4 and Free T3 were tested. Also many Dr's not in the know are notorious for missing hypothyroidism beacause they go by ranges only.

[clocker]

Is there any hope for my nuts and penis returning to normal?

[Sargovar]

Yeah, I wouldn't put too much faith in the docs when they tell you that your thyroid was 'ok', or 'normal'. You need to see the numbers and post them here. The word 'normal' seems to be synonymous with 'lower than it should be', but it is called 'normal' because it falls within the deceptive lab ranges (which are, for the most part, derived from a mixture of truly healthy people and sick people). If a doc admitted to you that your numbers were "on the low side", for example, then he would kind of be obliged to do something about it. It's much easier for most docs to just fall back on the age old normal bullshit and send you on your way.

Nuts and schlong returning to normal.. I don't see why they wouldn't return to the way they were if you manage to treat yourself properly.

Did you manage your E2 in any way during/after the cycles, btw? If not, it is probably still sky high and your body is awash in its bad metabolites. E2 (estradiol) is notorious for outcompeting thyroid function, as it latches to the same receptor sites. This could very well be a contributor or the main cause for your shrinkage. Ask any guy here with low thyroid function (even if they still have high test levels, like Cjones), and they'll tell you that shrinkage and ED go hand in hand with a messed up thyroid and adrenals.

[Recless]

Originally Posted by Sargovar

Yeah, I wouldn't put too much faith in the docs when they tell you that your thyroid was 'ok', or 'normal'. You need to see the numbers and post them here. The word 'normal' seems to be synonymous with 'lower than it should be', but it is called 'normal' because it falls within the deceptive lab ranges (which are, for the most part, derived from a mixture of truly healthy people and sick people). If a doc admitted to you that your numbers were "on the low side", for example, then he would kind of be obliged to do something about it. It's much easier for most docs to just fall back on the age old normal bullshit and send you on your way.

Nuts and schlong returning to normal.. I don't see why they wouldn't return to the way they were if you manage to treat yourself properly.

Did you manage your E2 in any way during/after the cycles, btw? If not, it is probably still sky high and your body is awash in its bad metabolites. E2 (estradiol) is notorious for outcompeting thyroid function, as it latches to the same receptor sites. This could very well be a contributor or the main cause for your shrinkage. Ask any guy here with low thyroid function (even if they still have high test levels, like Cjones), and they'll tell you that shrinkage and ED go hand in hand with a messed up thyroid and adrenals.

Great post man! All very true...I can attest to the last statement as well. My T levels are in the high 600's, free T at the top of the range, yet I remained lifeless down there until I started treationg adrenals and taking thyroid meds. I am also a former steroid user who couldn't recover from his last cycle despite proper PCT protocol which had worked numerous times in the past to bring T levels back to baseline.

[pmgamer18]

To add to this have your Anti's checke and Ferritin. I did not have my Ferritin checked and was up to 4 grains of Armour a day. Still having no weight loss and a lot of fatigue I had this tested. Dam I was low now 3 weeks on Iron pills and wow I sleep better have more engery and my sex that I felt was good is much better.
This site helped me a lot.
Stop The Thyroid Madness » Recommended Labwork

Originally Posted by Recless

Great post man! All very true...I can attest to the last statement as well. My T levels are in the high 600's, free T at the top of the range, yet I remained lifeless down there until I started treationg adrenals and taking thyroid meds. I am also a former steroid user who couldn't recover from his last cycle despite proper PCT protocol which had worked numerous times in the past to bring T levels back to baseline.

[clocker]

Did you manage your E2 in any way during/after the cycles, btw?

No I didn't.

Nuts and schlong returning to normal.. I don't see why they wouldn't return to the way they were if you manage to treat yourself properly.

ok when I have gotten full on morning erections my penis was a bit over an inch shorter, which has scared the shit out of me. I hope it is not permanent.

So what should be my plan of attack....go see an endocrinologist? I hope this dickhead can get it right. I am sick of being told there's nothing wrong or there's nothing they can do.

[Sargovar]

Recless, are those your natural T levels nowadays? If so, I commend you for recovering well!
But yeah, it's true.. T in itself is probably the least useful of these 'major' hormones. I could do with low normal T levels (my current high 400 - low 500s) if I knew beyond doubt that my thyroid & adrenals were in perfect form, and by that extension felt better. In all honesty I'd rather not inject unless absolutely necessary. But if it's a case of 'it ain't broke' (thyroid and adrenals).. I guess I'll have to. I got confirmation that my saliva tests have shipped from Canary Club. Saliva thyroid should give me a better understanding of what's going on at a cellular level, and it's always good to recheck the adrenals.

Clocker.. well there you go! Now you have a good lead to follow. You should definitely do a blood test for E2. In fact, you should do a comprehensive blood panel and post the results here. Janz has his list, which is pretty hard core, but I'm sure someone could give you the basic cookie cutter list of things to check. It would be much easier for us to assist you in determining the right course of treatment if we had some numbers to go by.

BTW.. the word 'endocrinologist' is a bit of an oxymoron. The popular opinion here at the boards is (and it is based on countless reports from seasoned members and rookies alike) that they let their egos get in the way of treating you; and that they actually know next to nothing about male HRT and don't seem to care.
An urologist would be better, but I hear osteopaths are the gold standard. They seem to be open and receptive to the patient's wishes instead of denying them crucial treatment or forcing their own protocol, which may or may not work (probably will not work if it's an endo in question).

Shrinkage.. should definitely be temporary. I've had periods of it as well (especially when doing a cutter and suffering from the resulting thyroid downregulation), and always regained both flaccid and erect size. Penile tissue is not like muscle tissue.. it can't permanently atrophy or lose volume (at least not to the best of my knowledge). The loss in size can be attributed to weakening of bloodflow brought about by hormonal imbalances, and once you remedy those, you should be back to normal.

However, I suppose it is possible in theory that your penis is 'going into hiding'.. that your ligaments are somehow withdrawing/losing elasticity. But I seriously doubt that is the case.. I don't think permanent penile shrinkage can occur, short of traumatic injury (causing peyronies, a condition where the shaft gets bent). Of course, if you can't get a 100% boner, you might as well have lost size because the unit is not expanding to its full form.