Men's Health Forum: This is a discussion on Antidepressants within the Anabolic Steroids forums, part of the extensive steroid information at MESO-Rx; what else could i try , this really stinks , becasue i feel different already , can talk to people ...
what else could i try , this really stinks , becasue i feel different already , can talk to people with out worry , happier , a little wired , which i guess is the side effects causing the bp rise , do you guys think it will go away or what ?
what else could i try , this really stinks , becasue i feel different already , can talk to people with out worry , happier , a little wired , which i guess is the side effects causing the bp rise , do you guys think it will go away or what ?
cut dose and stay there for a week or so, then go back to where you were. Consult w. doc on this. Some people are really sensitive to increase in serotonin and norepinephrin.
__________________
And we'll collect the moments one by one.
I guess that's how the future's done.
Feist, "Mushaboom", 2005.
Can antidepressants on their own, like diazepam help with adrenal fatigue?
Yes it helps I find Xnax helps better almost the same your stressed out from being sick and this helps keep you claim. I also do this 2 x's a day helps very much slows down the heart rate and gives your body a rest just doing this 20 min.'s 2 x's a day. It takes some work to get to doing this but now I can do this on a bus. the Relaxation Response
__________________
Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.
Phil
I have been on 300mg Wellbutrin and 75mg of Effexor (down from 225mg since starting TRT about one year ago under Swale's care) per day, and I don't feel that combo is doing its job. About 9 years ago I was on Prozac and I feel I did better on that. I was taken off if it because of sexual side effects - which were more likely due to low T than the Prozac - and put on Celexa and Wellbutrin. Then I was taken off Celexa and put on Effexor because of weight gain and general lethargy (also probably due in part to low T).
One problem I have that I think is due to the Effexor is faulty memory.
What are your feelings on this combo I'm on (300mg Wellbutrin and 75mg Effexor)?
While I solicit everyone's response, I'm really hoping Marianco will see this and take a shot at it.
I have been diagnosed with SEVERE major depression for the past ten years. I have taken literally every modern class antidepressant as well as some of the older tricyclic antidepressants. Ive also taken the MAOI Parnate and tried oral selegiline. Ive tried lithium augmentation of antidepressants, lamictal, depakote for headaches, low dose atypical anti-psychotics for augmentation of antidepressants.
I could go on and on and on...Ive taken all of them.
Some people here want to know what the best antidepressants are. I will tell you based upon my extensive experiences.
Overall, the MAOI Parnate was the best antidepressant Ive ever taken. It hits all three of the major monoamines, serotonin, norephinephrine AND STRONGLY, dopamine. It also increases MAO-B monoamines, obscure neurotransmitters like PEA, the "love" neurotransmitter you get in your brain when you eat expensive European chocolates.
Parnate kicked the shit out of all other antidepressants Ive ever taken. Period. There was not even any close comparison. Parnate also sharply increased my libido and my ability to get erections...so I can assume it increased my testosterone levels. Off Parnate and on SSRIs or Effexor, I barely thought about sex. On Parnate, I thought about sex a lot.
The problem with MAOIs is they are extremely dangerous. I found the MAOI diet very problematic and had two MAOI hypertensive crisises, one which landed me in a psychiatric hospital for nine days. That is the only psychiatric hospitalization Ive ever had and it wasnt a fun experience. All cause of MAOIs.
There is a new "transdermal" MAOI out, it uses the MAOI selegiline. I took oral selegiline for a short period and it felt very similar to Parnate to me. Since it is transdermal and bypasses the gut, in the lowest dose, the MAOI diet is not needed. This increases its safety...and usefulness...by a huge amount.
I am 100% positive there are many men out there with the secondary (central) form of hypogonadism who would respond better to transdermal selegiline than traditional TRT. With no estrogen spikes...none of that crap.
As far as modern class antidepressants, I found high dose Effexor to be the most potent. I totally disagree with Dr. Marianco (sp?) that 150 mg Effexor is approximately the same as 10 mg Lexapro or Celexa. 150 mg Effexor, you are strongly hitting two neurotransmitters, serotonin and norephinephrine. With both Lexapro and Celexa (wimpy SSRIs), you are mainly getting serotonin.
Effexor is a much more powerful antidepressant compared to any SSRI. I have never taken Cymbalta, but since its similar to high dose Effexor (hits all three of the major monoamines), I would suspect its effect is similar.
I also found plain old amphetamines (Ritalin) relieved anhedonia way better than serotoninergic meds like SSRIs. SSRIs are mainly for mild to moderate depressions and a recent MAJOR study conducted by psychiatry called STAR*D showed that SSRIs create a remission in major depression only one third of the time. That is a dismal recovery rate for medications so hyped as SSRIs.
I have found sleep apnea treatment (CPAP) to be an extremely effective augmentation approach for antidepressants. CPAP helped my mood disorder greatly.
Ive also read that shock treatment, or ECT, increases ALL the monoamines in the brain, including dopamine. I would strongly suspect that a session of ECT would reverse, at least temporarily, many cases of secondary or central hypogonadism. ECT could best be described as a "super MAOI." It causes massive release of all brain neurotransmitters, many hormones, improves sleep architecture, etc. Renowned ECT expert Dr. Max Fink, MD claims ECT's mechanism of action largely has to do with stimulating neuroendocrine effects on the pituitary gland and the hypothalamus...the same exact "master" glands in the brain associated with secondary hypogonadism. Fink claims the seizure induced by ECT creates massive neuro-endocrine changes in the nervous system no drug or hormone could even come close to duplicating.
Fred
Last edited by LowTestosterone38; 02-22-2008 at 02:47 AM.
I have been diagnosed with SEVERE major depression for the past ten years. I have taken literally every modern class antidepressant as well as some of the older tricyclic antidepressants. Ive also taken the MAOI Parnate and tried oral selegiline. Ive tried lithium augmentation of antidepressants, lamictal, depakote for headaches, low dose atypical anti-psychotics for augmentation of antidepressants.
I could go on and on and on...Ive taken all of them.
Some people here want to know what the best antidepressants are. I will tell you based upon my extensive experiences.
Overall, the MAOI Parnate was the best antidepressant Ive ever taken. It hits all three of the major monoamines, serotonin, norephinephrine AND STRONGLY, dopamine. It also increases MAO-B monoamines, obscure neurotransmitters like PEA, the "love" neurotransmitter you get in your brain when you eat expensive European chocolates.
Parnate kicked the shit out of all other antidepressants Ive ever taken. Period. There was not even any close comparison. Parnate also sharply increased my libido and my ability to get erections...so I can assume it increased my testosterone levels. Off Parnate and on SSRIs or Effexor, I barely thought about sex. On Parnate, I thought about sex a lot.
The problem with MAOIs is they are extremely dangerous. I found the MAOI diet very problematic and had two MAOI hypertensive crisises, one which landed me in a psychiatric hospital for nine days. That is the only psychiatric hospitalization Ive ever had and it wasnt a fun experience. All cause of MAOIs.
There is a new "transdermal" MAOI out, it uses the MAOI selegiline. I took oral selegiline for a short period and it felt very similar to Parnate to me. Since it is transdermal and bypasses the gut, in the lowest dose, the MAOI diet is not needed. This increases its safety...and usefulness...by a huge amount.
I am 100% positive there are many men out there with the secondary (central) form of hypogonadism who would respond better to transdermal selegiline than traditional TRT. With no estrogen spikes...none of that crap.
As far as modern class antidepressants, I found high dose Effexor to be the most potent. I totally disagree with Dr. Marianco (sp?) that 150 mg Effexor is approximately the same as 10 mg Lexapro or Celexa. 150 mg Effexor, you are strongly hitting two neurotransmitters, serotonin and norephinephrine. With both Lexapro and Celexa (wimpy SSRIs), you are mainly getting serotonin.
Effexor is a much more powerful antidepressant compared to any SSRI. I have never taken Cymbalta, but since its similar to high dose Effexor (hits all three of the major monoamines), I would suspect its effect is similar.
I also found plain old amphetamines (Ritalin) relieved anhedonia way better than serotoninergic meds like SSRIs. SSRIs are mainly for mild to moderate depressions and a recent MAJOR study conducted by psychiatry called STAR*D showed that SSRIs create a remission in major depression only one third of the time. That is a dismal recovery rate for medications so hyped as SSRIs.
I have found sleep apnea treatment (CPAP) to be an extremely effective augmentation approach for antidepressants. CPAP helped my mood disorder greatly.
Ive also read that shock treatment, or ECT, increases ALL the monoamines in the brain, including dopamine. I would strongly suspect that a session of ECT would reverse, at least temporarily, many cases of secondary or central hypogonadism. ECT could best be described as a "super MAOI." It causes massive release of all brain neurotransmitters, many hormones, improves sleep architecture, etc. Renowned ECT expert Dr. Max Fink, MD claims ECT's mechanism of action largely has to do with stimulating neuroendocrine effects on the pituitary gland and the hypothalamus...the same exact "master" glands in the brain associated with secondary hypogonadism. Fink claims the seizure induced by ECT creates massive neuro-endocrine changes in the nervous system no drug or hormone could even come close to duplicating.
Fred
Fred, where have you been? t;his is a great post. Looks like you're really been around the horn doing all these trials of psychotropics. Have you likewize been through all the trials on the endocrine side: testosterone, thyroid, adrenals?
Good to have you aboard. Pat
__________________
And we'll collect the moments one by one.
I guess that's how the future's done.
Feist, "Mushaboom", 2005.
Fred, where have you been? t;his is a great post. Looks like you're really been around the horn doing all these trials of psychotropics. Have you likewize been through all the trials on the endocrine side: testosterone, thyroid, adrenals?
Good to have you aboard. Pat
Hi HeadDoc,
Yeah, I have been through a great ordeal with psychopharmacology. I hate to say, I have a low opinion of psychiatry and psychopharmacology as a result. psychiatry is beginning to slowly admit their drugs arent quite as effective as the drug companies claim them to be (STAR*D), but it came too late IMO. There are a lot of people out there who have lost large chunks of their lives because of failed psychopharmacology. I have lost ten years, its only been recently with CPAP and testosterone that I began moving forward and onward some.
To answer your question, I have had my testosterone thoroughly checked out, but have had problems combining T with antidepressants. For some reason, it seems to be working this time , I suspect CPAP might have something to do with it. Ive had my thyroid checked out many many times in the past ten years, it always came back normal until very recently. I plan on having that checked out again soon.
Never really had my adrenals checked vigorously, although I did have a 24 hour cortisol urinary test ordered by an endocrinologist. He said it came back a bit high, but factored in with my creatine from Androgel, he didnt believe I had Cushings syndrome. That was years ago.
I know a huge amount about psychopharmacology, but admit to knowing little other than the bare bones basics about endocrinology stuff. I know enough to get by, but thats about all.
I also know a fair amount about sleep apnea. My doctor was telling me a story about a man he had as a patient who couldnt get his T levels up. So he goes to the Mayo clinic. The people at Mayo clinic tell him he has sleep apnea and that was contributing to his low T. After treatment with CPAP, his T levels began climbing back up.
Sleep apnea, via nocturnal hypoxia, can create a secondary form of hypogonadism.
there are psychiatrists that are working to combine or sort out the psychotropics from the hormones. Sometimes they go one way, sometimes the other, and sometimes a bit of both. The guy over at definitive psychiatry.com is one of them. He used to hang out here. The new field is called clinical neuropsychoendocrinology.
__________________
And we'll collect the moments one by one.
I guess that's how the future's done.
Feist, "Mushaboom", 2005.
there are psychiatrists that are working to combine or sort out the psychotropics from the hormones. Sometimes they go one way, sometimes the other, and sometimes a bit of both. The guy over at definitive psychiatry.com is one of them. He used to hang out here. The new field is called clinical neuropsychoendocrinology.
Hi HeadDoc,
Yeah, Ive heard of that new area called neuropsychoendocrinology. Unfortunately, I dont have much faith in anything psychiatry anymore. My attitude is almost, "if a psychiatrist is heavily involved in it, the research isnt going to be very good or credible." Im not saying that to be mean sounding, its just Ive really really had it with biological psychiatry. My belief is, as long as these psychiatry people continue to try to straddle this "biopsychosocial" thing, nothing is going to get done. They have to break from their past and admit the more serious problems are basically brain or Neuro problems, simply exacerbated by environmental stress. I believe way too much attention is put on early childhood experiences, one's environment and stress.
My opinion basically comes down to this. Not nearly enough money is being spent on research for severe forms of mental illness. I define severe mental illnesses as schizophrenia, classic manic depression (bipolar disorder), and severe forms of major depression. These doctors simply do not know what they are doing IMO, and they dont know nearly enough about the brain and the nervous system.
One of the few psychiatrists I agree with is Dr. E. Fuller Torrey, MD. This guy is a research Neuropsychiatrist at the Stanley Foundation. He is a proponent of formally merging psychiatry into Neurology, wholesale. I agree with that idea after what Ive been through. I dont believe treatment of severe mental illness should be separated from traditional Neurological diseases like Parkinsons. I think schizophrenia ought to be formally recategorized as a Neuro illness, not a psychiatric or psychological disorder. Ditto for manic depression and probably for the severe forms of major depression as well.
Id also like to see sleep medicine formally integrated into mental health professional's training, as I believe quality sleep is EXTREMELY important for effective treatment of mental illness. Good quality sleep is also extremely important when it comes to release of testosterone and human growth hormone.
Anyway, those are some of my thoughts regarding the problem of ineffective psychiatry after what I have been through in the last ten years.
Good to meet ya,
Fred
Last edited by LowTestosterone38; 02-23-2008 at 01:06 AM.
Re: Antidepressants 
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