Men's Health Forum: This is a discussion on Depression, HPA axis, lowered testosterone levels? within the Anabolic Steroids forums, part of the extensive steroid information at MESO-Rx; Ok, first post here.
I've been lurking since.. three nights ago, and I came to the conclusion that you are ...
Ok, first post here.
I've been lurking since.. three nights ago, and I came to the conclusion that you are experts in the field of male hormonal functioning. So, I thought I'd ask for your imput on a couple of things.
I'll try to make this as coherent as possible, so as to illuminate the problematics of my system imbalance to you. I'm a 22 year old male, I've been lifting weights for 4 years.. made good progress during the first two, and since then have been struggling to change my body composition (though I have gotten stronger).
I was getting some bloodwork done a while ago because I have vitiligo, an autoimmune disorder (though some claim its pathology is a combination of several disturbances) in which the body destroys the melanocytes of your skin, leaving you with white lesions here and there. It seems my vitiligo is on the milder side.. I haven't lost all that much pigment, apart from around my waist & inner thighs, and some small lesions on the backs of my hands and armpits. Anyway, I had a couple of lesions in my armpits for years.. probably from the time I was 19 or 20 (3 years ago), and they never spread anywhere.. up until last summer. I was doing a HST double split workout regime, trying to get cut, and I guess it all taxed my system too much, opening the gates for the vit to spread. Once I recovered (after losing good poundages off many of my pushing lifts such as bench, narrow grip bench etc.. and they still haven't come back), it stabilized and started to halt its progress. The cutter was obviously responsible.
So I got my bloodwork done to see whether I had any other disorders that are commonly associated with vitiligo. Apparently I'm healthy otherwise.. except for one aspect: my testosterone levels.
These fall within the normal range, unless I'm terribly mistaken. I have heard, though, that a TSH reading much over 2.0 may indicate a borderline hypothyroid disorder.. but since my free T4 is pretty decent, I'm sure that's not the case here.
I was surprised and even shocked to find it was that low. Granted, it was the darkest and coldest time of year, and when I got to the clinic I had to wait a while because there was a line (and since I had had to fast for 12 hours because of other tests that required it, I was feeling dizzy and hungry by the time they were drawing my blood) and those things may have contributed to the slightly low reading, but it was still a big disappointment. I requested that they check my free test as well, but they had neglected to do so, apparently not having the necessary equipment for that.
Now, I've been suffering from depression of various degrees for years.. probably since I was 14, and I have never conclusively treated it. Meds have been of little use (and I've read that most of them actually lower your free testosterone levels, which would explain the sexual side effects; and that's why I haven't touched them in a year), or only of temporary relief, so I've sought a lifestyle of health, exercise and minimal stress instead. You'd think that a young man of 22 who doesn't drink or smoke, eats healthy, avoids stress and lifts weights would have more testosterone than what is average for a middle aged man (mind you, an average middle aged man, i.e. one who doesn't necessarily pay close attention to his health). Could it be that my depression has screwed up my HPA axis, thereby lowering my testosterone, and possibly causing me adrenaline fatigue? Also, in the presence of insufficient testosterone, my immune system may have gone haywire, contributing to the onset of my vitiligo.
I have many of the symptoms of adrenaline fatigue. And I've always wondered why I've had such a hard time getting ripped. I've never been a really fat guy, though.. always having hovered around 13-16% bodyfat, but that's just because bulking has always felt very unproductive for me. I weigh about 186 lbs, and I'm a hair short of 5'11 or 179 cm tall.
I don't want to consider HRT because I'm so young, and because I'm only borderline low in test.. but it's obvious the amount of testosterone I have isn't enough for me. I don't have much of a sex drive, nor a drive to do anything else, for that matter (apart from lifting iron and trying to stay in shape).. I lack the vigor and enthusiasm of youth that people my age normally posess. I also have a very hard time getting ripped (I hit a brick wall at around 13& BF and only seem to deflate like a balloon after that if I try to push it further by decreasing calories/increasing cardio).
How would I go about resetting my HPA axis, assuming my depression has fucked it up? Could something like hcg combined with, perhaps Nolvadex or Armidex do the trick? I've heard that they can be used to boost weak low normal testosterone levels into the normal - high normal range. I think I've had normal testosterone levels in the past, because I remember having had a decent libido and energy levels, and making good progress with my body shaping efforts.
If anyone had the patience to read through this, I am very grateful. I feel like a jackass for dumping all my problems here in my first post. But I'm only trying to figure out ways of helping myself out of the slump I'm in.
There is a whole shipload of things that can go wrong causing your Sx.
Read this AACE Medical Guidelines for Evaluating and Treating Hypogonadism
Which doesnt cover the adrenals but is the definitive source on AMA approved testosterone problems.
They recommend looking at the HPG axis first. Total T, Calculated T, E2, PRL, SHBG. Their values should give an indication of how to proceed.
Regards,
zkt
Ok, first post here.
I've been lurking since.. three nights ago, and I came to the conclusion that you are experts in the field of male hormonal functioning. So, I thought I'd ask for your imput on a couple of things.
I'll try to make this as coherent as possible, so as to illuminate the problematics of my system imbalance to you. I'm a 22 year old male, I've been lifting weights for 4 years.. made good progress during the first two, and since then have been struggling to change my body composition (though I have gotten stronger).
I was getting some bloodwork done a while ago because I have vitiligo, an autoimmune disorder (though some claim its pathology is a combination of several disturbances) in which the body destroys the melanocytes of your skin, leaving you with white lesions here and there. It seems my vitiligo is on the milder side.. I haven't lost all that much pigment, apart from around my waist & inner thighs, and some small lesions on the backs of my hands and armpits. Anyway, I had a couple of lesions in my armpits for years.. probably from the time I was 19 or 20 (3 years ago), and they never spread anywhere.. up until last summer. I was doing a HST double split workout regime, trying to get cut, and I guess it all taxed my system too much, opening the gates for the vit to spread. Once I recovered (after losing good poundages off many of my pushing lifts such as bench, narrow grip bench etc.. and they still haven't come back), it stabilized and started to halt its progress. The cutter was obviously responsible.
So I got my bloodwork done to see whether I had any other disorders that are commonly associated with vitiligo. Apparently I'm healthy otherwise.. except for one aspect: my testosterone levels.
Here are a few readings I got checked:
Thyroids:
S - TSH: 2.49
S - T4 (free T4): 16.1
These fall within the normal range, unless I'm terribly mistaken. I have heard, though, that a TSH reading much over 2.0 may indicate a borderline hypothyroid disorder.. but since my free T4 is pretty decent, I'm sure that's not the case here.
Total testosterone: 517 (or 17.95 nmol/l)
I was surprised and even shocked to find it was that low. Granted, it was the darkest and coldest time of year, and when I got to the clinic I had to wait a while because there was a line (and since I had had to fast for 12 hours because of other tests that required it, I was feeling dizzy and hungry by the time they were drawing my blood) and those things may have contributed to the slightly low reading, but it was still a big disappointment. I requested that they check my free test as well, but they had neglected to do so, apparently not having the necessary equipment for that.
Now, I've been suffering from depression of various degrees for years.. probably since I was 14, and I have never conclusively treated it. Meds have been of little use (and I've read that most of them actually lower your free testosterone levels, which would explain the sexual side effects; and that's why I haven't touched them in a year), or only of temporary relief, so I've sought a lifestyle of health, exercise and minimal stress instead. You'd think that a young man of 22 who doesn't drink or smoke, eats healthy, avoids stress and lifts weights would have more testosterone than what is average for a middle aged man (mind you, an average middle aged man, i.e. one who doesn't necessarily pay close attention to his health). Could it be that my depression has screwed up my HPA axis, thereby lowering my testosterone, and possibly causing me adrenaline fatigue? Also, in the presence of insufficient testosterone, my immune system may have gone haywire, contributing to the onset of my vitiligo.
I have many of the symptoms of adrenaline fatigue. And I've always wondered why I've had such a hard time getting ripped. I've never been a really fat guy, though.. always having hovered around 13-16% bodyfat, but that's just because bulking has always felt very unproductive for me. I weigh about 186 lbs, and I'm a hair short of 5'11 or 179 cm tall.
I don't want to consider HRT because I'm so young, and because I'm only borderline low in test.. but it's obvious the amount of testosterone I have isn't enough for me. I don't have much of a sex drive, nor a drive to do anything else, for that matter (apart from lifting iron and trying to stay in shape).. I lack the vigor and enthusiasm of youth that people my age normally posess. I also have a very hard time getting ripped (I hit a brick wall at around 13& BF and only seem to deflate like a balloon after that if I try to push it further by decreasing calories/increasing cardio).
How would I go about resetting my HPA axis, assuming my depression has fucked it up? Could something like hcg combined with, perhaps Nolvadex or Armidex do the trick? I've heard that they can be used to boost weak low normal testosterone levels into the normal - high normal range. I think I've had normal testosterone levels in the past, because I remember having had a decent libido and energy levels, and making good progress with my body shaping efforts.
If anyone had the patience to read through this, I am very grateful. I feel like a jackass for dumping all my problems here in my first post. But I'm only trying to figure out ways of helping myself out of the slump I'm in.
Your testosterone is exactly same as 10 healthy young men, table 2 and 4 of this 2006 paper.
QuestDiagnostics Ranges ---http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/intguide/EndoMetab/Gen_Misc/Testosterone/Table%201.pdf
TT=(250-1100)(ng/dL)=(8.67-38.1)(nmol/L)
FreeT=(46-224)(pg/mL)=(159-777)(pmol/L)
BAT=(110-575)(ng/dL)=(3.81-19.9)(nmol/L)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------http://www.atypon-link.com/WDG/doi/pdf/10.1515/JLM.2006.050
TT=18.14(nmol/L)=523(ng/dL)
SHBG=24.2(nmol/L)
Albumin=43.0(g/L)
FT=199(pmol/L)=57.4(pg/mL)
BAT=5.5(nmol/L)=159(ng/dL)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You should mostly worry about BioAvailableTestosterone.
Do tests at Quest Diagnostic.
If you can, do long blood test that I post from time to time.
I can post it again.
With that test you would get broader wiew of where you are at.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For thyroid test
FreeT3
FreeT4
JanSz.. that's news to me. Every other source I've seen so far puts me at the very lowest end of the normal spectrum for my age.. and I must again point out how odd that is, considering how healthy I live. Anyway, I will get my free testosterone and E2 checked to see if there's anything weird going on there. WIll have to try a different lab since the last one couldn't get free test measured.
Anyway, while some men my age might thrive perfectly well on 517 total test (assuming my free test is more or less proportional with it), I obviously would need more to make any kind of decent progress in lifting weights and to have enough energy to live an all around active life. I'd also think that more testosterone would lead to more dopamine, and thus alleviate my depression.
I'm no expert on thyroid function, so I'm wondering if a free T4 of 16.1 pmol/l is a good or even decent amount?
Zkt, that was a lot to digest for sure. A good read.. very informative. I'm far from a guru on these matters, so some of the stuff went over my head.
Would it be possibly at all to fix a mild testosterone deficiency (and possible excess estrogen) with something like Nolvadex or Armidex? All I want, really, is to push two or three hundred units higher, into the 700-800 range. That would be an optimal amount of testosterone for someone of my lifestyle, I think. Could that be accomplished with, say, Nolva? I'm a bit skeptical at my chances of getting my hands on hCG (though I'd love to give it a shot if I can find it somewhere). And last but not least, if I'm being realistic, I will never ever be able to get a prescription for any of these things in my country; not in my condition, at any rate. I don't think there are any anti aging doctors around at all.. certainly not ones that will deal with otherwise healthy 22 year old patients (and you can forget about endocrinologists)! I'll have to pay a visit to some acquaintances who have been pro bodybuilders in the past.. that is most likely my only avenue of getting my hands on the aforementioned substances.
But first, a comprehensive bloodtest. Any more comments/advice would be greatly appreciated!
JanSz.. that's news to me. Every other source I've seen so far puts me at the very lowest end of the normal spectrum for my age.. and I must again point out how odd that is, considering how healthy I live. Anyway, I will get my free testosterone and E2 checked to see if there's anything weird going on there. WIll have to try a different lab since the last one couldn't get free test measured.
Anyway, while some men my age might thrive perfectly well on 517 total test (assuming my free test is more or less proportional with it), I obviously would need more to make any kind of decent progress in lifting weights and to have enough energy to live an all around active life. I'd also think that more testosterone would lead to more dopamine, and thus alleviate my depression.
I'm no expert on thyroid function, so I'm wondering if a free T4 of 16.1 pmol/l is a good or even decent amount?
Zkt, that was a lot to digest for sure. A good read.. very informative. I'm far from a guru on these matters, so some of the stuff went over my head.
Would it be possibly at all to fix a mild testosterone deficiency (and possible excess estrogen) with something like Nolvadex or Armidex? All I want, really, is to push two or three hundred units higher, into the 700-800 range. That would be an optimal amount of testosterone for someone of my lifestyle, I think. Could that be accomplished with, say, Nolva? I'm a bit skeptical at my chances of getting my hands on hCG (though I'd love to give it a shot if I can find it somewhere). And last but not least, if I'm being realistic, I will never ever be able to get a prescription for any of these things in my country; not in my condition, at any rate. I don't think there are any anti aging doctors around at all.. certainly not ones that will deal with otherwise healthy 22 year old patients (and you can forget about endocrinologists)! I'll have to pay a visit to some acquaintances who have been pro bodybuilders in the past.. that is most likely my only avenue of getting my hands on the aforementioned substances.
But first, a comprehensive bloodtest. Any more comments/advice would be greatly appreciated!
Sargovar:
You think identical as i do ! Lol every word!
i'm 21 , and my testosterone level is 520 ng/dL (300-1000) and i'm not happy about it, i can't make ANY progress in gym for over a year... i think 520 is normal but its not optimal at all...
i live a healthy life too...i'm about 16% bf
and i've noticed i don't have a much drive to do something...(variably)
i lack a bit enthusiasm too
but i guess i don't feel symptoms so much as you do...but definitely CAN'T make any progress in gym even with high protein/carb diets
i wan't to see my total testosterone in 700-800 range, so i'm about to run nolva 10mg/ED - 4 weeks soon...
i bought it already
Sargovar:
You think identical as i do ! Lol every word!
i'm 21 , and my testosterone level is 520 ng/dL (300-1000) and i'm not happy about it, i can't make ANY progress in gym for over a year... i think 520 is normal but its not optimal at all...
i live a healthy life too...i'm about 16% bf
and i've noticed i don't have a much drive to do something...(variably)
i lack a bit enthusiasm too
but i guess i don't feel symptoms so much as you do...but definitely CAN'T make any progress in gym even with high protein/carb diets
i wan't to see my total testosterone in 700-800 range, so i'm about to run nolva 10mg/ED - 4 weeks soon...
i bought it already
Did you spend your time in the swimming pool alot ? vitaglo - which i had as well is a sign of copper imbalnace more so of copper excess then deficeincy. People with automimune diseases usually have some form of adrenal fatigue or hormonal imbalance from the start that would predispose them if you look at your dhea to cortisol ratio via salivia i think you will find alot of your answers. Also to look at what events in your life lead up to the depression. Stress can come in many forms mental phyiscal and enviromental. Most of people I encountered can be linked back to heavy metals or enviromental toxins such as having a house with lead pipe and drinking the water not knowing it. simple over looked things as those which drs are fucken idiots to investigate further. There solution take a pill and see me in 6 weeks FUCK THAT..
GEt some goot fats in your diet you can not make hormones with out cholesterol and essential fats. People are so fat phobic its sick.
Sargovar:
You think identical as i do ! Lol every word!
i'm 21 , and my testosterone level is 520 ng/dL (300-1000) and i'm not happy about it, i can't make ANY progress in gym for over a year... i think 520 is normal but its not optimal at all...
i live a healthy life too...i'm about 16% bf
and i've noticed i don't have a much drive to do something...(variably)
i lack a bit enthusiasm too
but i guess i don't feel symptoms so much as you do...but definitely CAN'T make any progress in gym even with high protein/carb diets
i wan't to see my total testosterone in 700-800 range, so i'm about to run nolva 10mg/ED - 4 weeks soon...
i bought it already
Hehe, yeah, I can see a mirror reflection of my own situation when reading your post.
I mean sure, 520 or thereabouts isn't bad; it certainly isn't what you'd consider hypogonadal, but it just doesn't seem to cut it when it comes to maintaining a young man's libido and energy levels. Also, I think I may have excess estrogen floating around, since I almost always look "smooth", and have a hard time retaining water in my muscles, and a very hard time losing fat beyond a certain point. To reiterate, I'm not a fat guy, though.. around 14% bodyfat currently (can see the upper two abs). But that's only because I haven't eaten above maintenance in a year, and I'm actually trying to do a cutting cycle at the moment (with lackluster results).
Would be cool to keep tabs on your progress with nolva alone. Based on what I've read here and elsewhere, it is very much possible to get into the upper 700-900 range or maybe even a little higher with it.
Hardasnails, nope, I haven't done much swimming (apart from swimming in the lake during summer). You say you had vitiligo.. am I to understand you no longer have it? I've personally noticed that certain triggers seem to cause it to spread.. such as when I was in California for 2 weeks on a vacation trip this past november, and didn't get any or very little good fats during that time (which I normally consume in copious amounts, omega 3's in particular).. I got big vitiligo blotches on my waist and crotch area. I've dyed my hair very dark a couple times, too, and that also seems to provoke it to spread (strangely enough I have no vitiligo on my face, scalp or hairline). But now that I've been doing my best to avoid all the stressors that seem to catalyze the process of pigment destruction (hair dying, stress, not getting enough good fats etc), and started taking ginko bilboa along with vitamin D, it has hardly spread at all. In fact, the only place other than my underwear area (which obviously isn't visible to people ) that I have the spots is the backs of my hands, and they're not very widespread there, either. I seem to have halted or at least dramatically slowed down the progress of the disease. I'm getting an UVB home treatment device soon, and with any luck, I'll be able to treat the spots on my waist and the backs of my hands, and regain 100% of my pigment (since I haven't lost it extensively yet), and keep what I've regained.
I'm pretty sure I'll start to find some answers. I got a home kit to test for adrenal fatigue (saliva 4 x a day, both cortisol and DHEA), and I'll run it this sunday and send it to the lab on monday. I used to think that all I'd need is more testosterone.. but now I can't help but conclude that in a case such as mine, where my T output is apparently only slightly depressed, the reasons behind my deficiency may be very complex, and I'd better start searching for clues from the ground up: adrenals first, everything else second.
Speaking of which.. I think my "depression" (as it's been diagnosed, and as I myself have come to diagnose it) may have its roots in adrenal insufficiency, after all. I was bullied in school by bigger kids when I was 14 years old, and the experience was quite traumatic. In retrospect, that was the turning point, after which I've never quite felt 'alright' or 'connected'.. like a power chord in my brain has been unplugged ever since (persistant brain fog and mild depression, poor stress control, occasional bouts of severe depression; though none in the past year or so). I mean sure, I've had some better times in between all the gloominess, but for the most part, the time since I was 14 has gone by in a hazy blur; like I'm literally stuck in between ticks of the clock; frozen in suspended animation, incapable of progressing forward.
I really do count my blessings for having discovered this site, as I would have never found out about adrenal fatigue if I hadn't stumbled here. With any luck, the saliva tests will give me my answers, and I'll be on the road to treating not only my adrenals, but my thyroid (which, based on my TSH of 2.49, were a bit sluggish; again, probably because of adrenal fatigue) and testosterone as well, and reclaiming my vigor and enthusiasm for life, which I've been sorely missing for much too long. And I'd love not having to struggle so damn much just to maintain the kind of physique a truly healthy young man would attain with recreational weight lifting every now and then & eating whatever crap he feels like. Not to say I'm going to abandon my healthy ways of living or start slacking off with the weights when I get my testosterone and stuff up and running, but rather that I'll actually have a reason to be motivated and continue on with a healthy weight lifting lifestyle, because I'll start to reap the benefits.
Here's a pic of me taken last summer, btw.. this is as cut as I've ever been able to get (though I've never really tried drastic measures like DNP, TRT or thyroid replacement). I felt like shit all throughout that cutter, and ended up losing 30 lbs off my bench press and narrow grip bench. Not a very good net result for my efforts, managing to get down to 13% bodyfat from 16% over the span of 3 months.
My body composition hasn't changed at all during this past year, nor the year before that, in spite of all my best efforts (I'm running on 4 years of lifting now). I have gained some strength in certain lifts, but as far as I can tell, my body looks exactly the same. In fact, even though I was on maintenance calories this entire past year, I managed to gain some fat, which I am now trying to desperately lose so I could look like I did last summer (which wasn't particularily ripped).
You look almost like me (you have a bit more muscles 5-6 lbs , and less fat 3-4%) i'm 179 too
I'd like to test Total Testosterone again but i'm needle- - - if anyone can help regarding needle-fear PM me...
I have kind of a brain fog too, especially in the dark afternoon, night ...kinda bad night vision
i was wondering if its high E2 or low T symptom or what ... (i have it 4-5 years already)?!
hmmmm 900 <---
i'd like to test again for LH, FSH, Total T, E2, Cortisol, Prolactin...before nolvadex but i have no solution for needle fear...
"And I'd love not having to struggle so damn much just to maintain the kind of physique a truly healthy young man would attain with recreational weight lifting every now and then & eating whatever crap he feels like" - exactly !
Yeah, that's pretty weird! Same situation, same testosterone levels, same thoughts and issues, same height.. and we even look alike.
Well, let's hope that whatever works for me, also works for you (and vice versa)! It would be sweet to get the thyroid optimized, and the T into the high normal range (900 sounds pretty good to me!).
Oh yeah, about that bad night vision thing.. I'm not sure. I do know that if you're overly sensitive to light, it might indicate an adrenal problem..
Depression, HPA axis, lowered testosterone levels? 
So, I thought I'd ask for your imput on a couple of things.
But I'm only trying to figure out ways of helping myself out of the slump I'm in.
Every other source I've seen so far puts me at the very lowest end of the normal spectrum for my age.. and I must again point out how odd that is, considering how healthy I live. Anyway, I will get my free testosterone and E2 checked to see if there's anything weird going on there. WIll have to try a different lab since the last one couldn't get free test measured. 
I'm far from a guru on these matters, so some of the stuff went over my head. 
Linear Mode
