DIM question: trying to understand DIM/E2 relationship (???)

[EasyRider]

Ok, it's known that DIM doesn't lower plasma E2 levels in blood tests (somebody here had answer from Zeligs on that), but increases good estrogen metabolites, promotes "deactivation" etc. etc.

But I still can't get how exactly this stuff works in terms of what happens in body - what and when breaks down and how it affects organs and most importantly why don't show up on blood tests?

Is it E2 broken faster in liver with DIM or what? Is it just shift in its metabolites ratios?

What does exactly deactivation means? I suppose if it really helps to break down E2 then it should show up on blood tests or no? For instance, those with serious liver disease have elevated E2 since liver is lazy breaking it down. Like if smth speeds up break down of smth else there should be less that smth else in any given moment.

Ok, it doesn't break down E2 then if it just shifts metabolites ratio how it can work helping those with high E2 since E2 has the ultimate potency, is metabolites ratio so important? Or probably blood tests measure E2+metabolites (doubt that).

How can it restore libido, energy and better erection without altering E2 levels, does it alter its concentration in tissues and receptors?

And all descriptions of its action mechanism I found are quite vague like this one below, just don't make much sense to me. Can someone help to understand how exactly it works?

Btw, it seems to be working for me, action seems puzzling though.

DIM stimulates more efficient metabolism for estrogen. Supplementing the diet with DIM and eating cruciferous vegetables increases the specific aerobic metabolism for estrogen, multiplying the chance for estrogen to be broken down into its beneficial or “good” estrogen metabolites. Many of the benefits that are attributed to estrogen, including its ability to protect the heart and brain with its antioxidant activity, are now known to come from these “good” metabolites.

When DIM increases the “good” estrogen metabolites, there is a simultaneous reduction in the levels of undesirable, or ”bad”, estrogen metabolites. In women, these unfavorable metabolites are responsible for many of estrogen’s undesirable actions, including further unwanted weight gain, breast cancer, and uterine cancer. In men, these metabolites contribute to weight gain and prostate cancer. A slow metabolism of estrogen, leaving too much unmetabolized, active estrogen (also called estradiol), can be a problem in women and men. Elevated estradiol causes moodiness and breast pain in women and loss of sex drive in men. By promoting a healthy estrogen metabolism, DIM adjusts the balance of estradiol to its “good” metabolites

[pmgamer18]

I did Indolplex/DIM for yrs and yes my labs showed my E2 went down I don't know what others are saying about it but it converts the bad E2 onto good E's so your liver can wash them out. There is a lot of Junk DIM out there that does not work and I would tell men to get Indolplex/DIM and they would post back to me it did not work. After asking them what they got I could see why it did not work it's junk. When ever a new thing comes out the supplement co.'s jump on the band wagon and put out supplements with nothing in it.

Dr. John AKA SWALE here do a search says it works but take some TMG with it to help the liver get rid out it.
Organic Pharmacy >> PRODUCTS

It's even good for Prostate Cance cells.
Plant-derived 3,3'-Diindolylmethane Is a Strong Androgen Antagonist in Human Prostate Cancer Cells -- Le et al. 278 (23): 21136 -- Journal of Biological Chemistry
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Indolplex with DIM - 60 tab - PhytoPharmica Select Phytopharmica Items
The following link is full of links about DIM
Indole-3-Carbinol (IC3)

[EasyRider]

Thanks pmgamer18, I use DIM from bioresponse, so it's the same stuff as phytopharmacia.

But do you actually have blood drawn for E2 before and after DIM? Like when you saying your E2 is going too low with DIM did you get E2 smth like 7 or 10 pmol/L or something like that?

I read this long thread on DIM discussion where DavidZ had posted his blood tests, but I don't know trust them or not. Somebody there wrote to Bioresponse and got official answer from Zeigs that it doesn't affect blood E2 levels.

Can I actually go too low on E2 'cause of DIM improved metabolism in liver? I'm still looking for clarity here. I read Zeigs's "book", but it's not written in scientific way. All studies are about urine excretion of estrogens or effect of DIM on cancer cells, but yet found nothing involving blood tests and E2. I'm looking for it now and will probably find smth.

I can say it works for me though: the main improvement is I can think clear now and got rid of brain fog, like looking on the world in a new fresh way.

[hardasnails1973]

took me 8 pills of dim a day to increase 2/16 ratio.
You should also make sure you methyl support such as sam-e or TMG.

[pmgamer18]

I can only say what happened to my E2 levels on Indolplex/DIM other DIM's did nothing to lower my E2 levels. Yes on Indolplex/DIM my levels of E2 went down and on some of my labs went to low so I don't know what others are saying the Indolplex/DIM does not change E2 labs this is Bull. The Indolplex/DIM converts E2 into good E's so your liver can wash them out I went down below 10 on one table of this. Had to stop taking it until my levels come back up then I went on one half a tab and added some TMG like Hard just said this helps your liver was out the bad and Good E's that get converted from using Indolplex/DIM. If your using a different kind of DIM Bo what ever and your labs don't go down it's not working and for me never did. The only DIM that worked for me was what David Z used Indolplex/DIM Dr. John aka SWALE here said to add TMG to the DIM to help rid your self of the bad E's that get converted do a search on his nick and your will find a lot of posts about this.

Today I gage my E2 levels by my night time and morning wood If I am going to low it stops if I am going to high I get sore and hard nipples then my wood stops. E2 changes from month to month in most men so you need to adjust your does by your wood and labs to stay in the sweet spot. E2 levels to high or to low kill your wood.
TMG 750mg (Trimethylglycine) - 120 tab - Source Naturals T
Indolplex with DIM - 60 tab - PhytoPharmica Select Phytopharmica Items
PhytoPharmica Indolplex with DIM

Originally Posted by EasyRider

Thanks pmgamer18, I use DIM from bioresponse, so it's the same stuff as phytopharmacia.

But do you actually have blood drawn for E2 before and after DIM? Like when you saying your E2 is going too low with DIM did you get E2 smth like 7 or 10 pmol/L or something like that?

I read this long thread on DIM discussion where DavidZ had posted his blood tests, but I don't know trust them or not. Somebody there wrote to Bioresponse and got official answer from Zeigs that it doesn't affect blood E2 levels.

Can I actually go too low on E2 'cause of DIM improved metabolism in liver? I'm still looking for clarity here. I read Zeigs's "book", but it's not written in scientific way. All studies are about urine excretion of estrogens or effect of DIM on cancer cells, but yet found nothing involving blood tests and E2. I'm looking for it now and will probably find smth.

I can say it works for me though: the main improvement is I can think clear now and got rid of brain fog, like looking on the world in a new fresh way.

[TheOldFart]

Indolplex DIM is available from either PhytoPharmica or the parent company Enzymatic Therapy. A number of people have posted where to buy the PhytoPharmica brand. The Enzymatic Therapy brand is available here: Enzymatic Therapy, Pure Rip with DIM, 60 Tablets - iHerb.com

I am currently taking the Enzymatic Therapy brand and will get my E2 level tested next month. I get an additional 10% to 14% discount on the Enzymatic Therapy DIM, as I buy most of our supplements there.