Fighting Clomid's sides for those with severe reactions

[Normandy]

Bro's, I come to you for some advice/input on something that's been on my mind for months now. Most of you don't know me or my story even though I've been coming to this forum (almost daily) for more than a year now (100% my fault of course), thankful to be educated by professionals like SWALE, Marianco, and Headdoc.. and humbled by personalities like Pmgamer18, Kroms_laugh, and many more. What started out as purely a fact-finding mission for me (back when Swale was at the other board) has evolved to a daily "beacon of hope" where Im surrounded by men who are going thru or have been thru the same life-transforming fucked-upness of being HPTA suppressed within the context of a medical community that refuses to see what's right in front of them. (pardon a bit more ranting, but I must give credit where credit is due, especially since this is my first thread) I had completely given up on docs, and thought of them as being ppl who's intellectual curiousity only lasted as long as medical school. Ironically, it wasn't until I turned to the "darkside" of AAS forums, that my respect for health practitioners was slowly restored, thanks entirely, to the approach that SWALE and Marianco have to medicine.

I could go on and on talking about the individual role each one of you has played in forming my current psyche. The inspiration of seeing a guy who after 21 years of ED, anxiety, lethargy.. now has some semblance of a normal life, and instead of being bitter about time lost, chooses to help others to the degree of obsessing about morning wood, in the hopes that others don't have to go thru the same time lost.
Or being proud of our armed forces by seeing the eloquence and professionalism of a marine who will shatter anyone's stereotype of "Muscles Are Required Intelligence Not Essential Sir!" I could go on and on, but I won't. Suffice it to say, that I am gratefull to be among you gents.

Now on to the purpose of this thread.. Ideas on counteracting Clomid's side effects. For me, it's not just a matter of curiosity. You'll see why in a sec.

Im not sure if there's more studies on Clomid's side effects other than the one below which was provided by the manufacturer. And although it's likely that all the patients in this group were women, there's a point I'd like to make. That is, most ppl I see posting about their clomid experience, have felt perhaps some side effects, but nothing that would almost force them to stop adruptly. In my case, it's the opposite.

Incidence Of Adverse Events in Clinical Studies
((Events Greater than 1%) > n = 8029* ’)

Adverse Event %
Ovarian Enlargement 13.6
Vasomotor Flushes 10.4
Abdominal-Pelvic Discomfort/Distention/Bloating 5.5
Nausea and Vomiting 2.2
Breast Discomfort 2.1
Visual Symptoms
Blurred vision, lights, floaters, waves, unspecified visual complaints, photophobia, diplopia, scotomata, phosphenes
1.5
Headache 1.3
Abnormal uterine Bleeding, Intermenstrual spotting, menorrhagia 1.3



Even on 25 mg of Clomid, I get Nausea, blurred vision, headache, the blues, anxiety, and the most alarming for me, a feeling of psychosis. There's no other way I can explain it. By the fourth or fifth day, just taking a shower is freaky. Im not saying that I hear voices or anything, but the general sense is that Im losing my mind. That one symptom alone, has been the reason for me discontinuing a planned clomid cycle two times in the past.

So why not just assume that Im one of those ppl that should just stay clear of clomid? That I should take these symptoms seriously. Believe me, I have. The thing is, the only thing that has responded in ppl in resetting their axis, has been clomid/nolva. As much as I can tell, at any rate. You see, I've been HPTA shutdown for 5 years now. (Im 30 y/o) And I know what caused my secondary HH. I spent an entire year eating high density soy protein, back when everyone was touting its good health effects. And even though I didn't know what was causing it then, I knew my testes were shrinking and went to see many docs when libido began to sink. They all looked me in the face and said that it was impossible for soy or anything else you eat, to cause ED. And pretty much said it was in my head and that I was hormonally fine. (Total T was at 280 with a range of 240-800)
In any case, since my Hypogonadism was essentially induced by soy's estrogenic negative feedback, Im hoping that a "cure" is still attainable. Any of you guys react this visciously to clomid? Any ideas on how to counteract the symptoms? Should they even be masked in the first place?

Any and all advice is deeply appreciated.


-- Normandy

[pmgamer18]

Go post and well done can you post or tell us if you had other tests done. What comes to mind is Estradiol and Total E's I am not sure never did clomid but this could have something to do with it. Also what other T meds have you tryed like T or HCG. 3 yrs is a long time to be shut down and if you were not doing TRT you would think you would have come back by now.

I helped a guy in the Bahamas that posted at the H2 group he has all the symptoms of Low T by could not get tested. As I was talking to him he told me how well he took care of his self and how his diet was. He was drinking a huge amount of Soy Milk. I told him I felt this was the problem. And that the soy E marker was taking up space in his cells and his brain could be thinking this is T and his T levels could be low. He stopped the soy and got some Indolplex/DIM he took this for 6 weeks then stopped when his morning wood came back. He and his wife were very happy this was a good yr and a half ago. I have heard from him off and on and things are still good and he is not taking anything.

[1cc]

Normandy,

You need to have a full set of labs done per Swale's Sticky. The reason that the Clomid has this effect on you is probably because it acts like an Estrogen. I would advise you to get in touch with Swale and see if he can get this sorted out for you really quick.

It would be impossible to make any recommendations without having some labs done. If your estrogen is high, you may need to use an AI for a short time. If your testes are shrunken, then you may need to use HCG for a short time. Getting your HPTA going again may require a combo of an AI, HCG and perhaps Clomid/Nolvadex if necessary.

[Normandy]

THxs for ur speedy responses guys.

I hope u guys don't mind if I just copy from the few posts i've submitted thus far, and just paste it onto this thread. In retrospect, i think i was hijacking Chap's "attempting to restart" thread. And this might highlight what my current situation is with the labs.

First a quote from Vforcer2: << I know little about clomid as I have never used it. I wonder if the the dark feelings and effects you have are due to it being a weak estrogen. I also wonder if using it low dose with low dose Armididex might allow some mopping up of these excess estrogens that are making you feel poorly>>

Now from me...

It's most likely caused by its weak estrogenic effects... but if so, it begs the question.. is it more a function of which target tissues/receptors are being affected in the brain OR is it more an issue of simply having elevated estrogen to begin with and then just making matters worse by exerting more estrogenic effects in general. In other words, would someone with low E2 to beginwith not such pronounced effects of clomid as I do? I don't know what my levels are since I haven't been successfull in finding a doc willing to work with me (or consult with Swale) and set paternalism aside for a day. I've been to 6 docs and they all refused to send for estrogen labwork, they all had varying reasons for refusing, but i got the sense that they just didn't see the need for a man to check something other than his TT, Test, lipids, and Prolactin when presenting hypogonadic symptoms. Which is why i turned to forums like these, this one being the best one IMO.

But in any case, Vforcer2, adding arimidex to attenuate the severe anxiety I get on clomid sounds like something worth trying, as soon as I set aside some cash to get my bloodwork done out-of-pocket and that way assure I get E2, DHT, Bioava T, TT etc. [Essentially all the labs from Swale's sticky]
Another option would be to temporarily go on a light dosage of anxiolytics while on the clomid treatment, but my concern is that would just be masking a symptom that might serve to alarm the pt of something more serious at hand. (wheras adding arimidex, if it proves to work, would have attenuated or prevented the cause rather than mask a symptom)

At the end of the day, Im walking this tightrope blindfolded and just hoping for something to work. (much like a lot of guys on here) But this scenario is still infinitely better than year after year being told not to worry about my testicle shrinkage that nothing hormonally was wrong with me (at 280 ng/dl 240-800 range)and having docs treat ref ranges rather than the patient.

In short, if I could afford the plane ticket and consult to be treated by ATM, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I live in S.Florida, and somehow the docs down here are just plain stubborn. <-- and that's a euphemism. I still haven't given up hope, and so im steadily saving up some cash to at least do things the right way.


-- Normandy

[Normandy]

Marianco... Headdoc... Any ideas as to whether Clomid side effects are mainly attributed to the binding of certain receptors in specific areas of the brain or whether it is, instead, a general estrogenic increase in sum, [much like glycemic load] magnifying what endogenous estrogen levels would do naturally (if levels were high)??.

Im not sure if the above makes any sense to u guys, but im trying to parse what I see would be a huge difference in implications. I just really suck at expressing it.




-- Normandy