hCG Monotherapy Success Story -- Staggering Numbers

[zkt]

Originally Posted by jinxie1

Jan, for your age, your pre-TRT TT is pretty much normal. Without knowing your FT, technically, you are not hypogonadal. But that doesnt mean that you dont warrant treatment. One things is for certain, you are not secondary. If you were, that hCG dose you are taking would be sending your TT to the ether, along with your E2 -- it sounds like it's doing nothing, other than plumping your balls up and changing the texture of your scrotum; seems like a lot of a med to be taking for aesthetics, but I appreciate that we have different views in this regard. Good luck.

If one is happy functioning in the bottom 15% of the normal range then I gotta wish them all the happiness they deserve.
I dont know about this " plumping the balls up and changing the texture of the skin".
The skin of the scrotum is certainly unique in that it passes topical T esters better than anywhere else. Not sure why it would respond to hcg differently than any other skin tho.
The balls consist of mostly stromal cells who function is to produce T. It doesnt seem sensibile for the body to produce non-functioning cells.
Another thing to think about is the number of LH receptors in the testicles. Would`nt it be at least possible for the body to try and match that number to the quantity of LH available ? If that is so then it would take some time before the hcg had an effect. There is a body of anechdodal evidence indicating this.

[zkt]

Originally Posted by jinxie1

It's the opposite Jan. LH normal, T low, primary. You are getting the signal, but the testies are responding to it. As ZKT aptly points out, FSH is a better measure of whether you are secondary, as LH is pulsatile in nature, and requires multiple readings to get a truly accurate reading.

As this juncture, I think it's clear from your response to hCG that you are primary, even if you weren't when you started. Only way to know for sure is to come of T and try a restart, which would be misguided at your age, IMO.

Good luck.

P.S. When did China start drilling 30 miles off our coasts? I'd be very interested in a link. Probably from The Onion.

Heres another good one:
The administration is pushing hard for a trade agreement with Columbia- Guess where the greatest # of union organizers was killed last year ?worldwide. Gotta hate those greedy bastards.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by jinxie1

It's the opposite Jan. LH normal, T low, primary. You are getting the signal, but the testies are responding to it. As ZKT aptly points out, FSH is a better measure of whether you are secondary, as LH is pulsatile in nature, and requires multiple readings to get a truly accurate reading.

As this juncture, I think it's clear from your response to hCG that you are primary, even if you weren't when you started. Only way to know for sure is to come of T and try a restart, which would be misguided at your age, IMO.

Good luck.

P.S. When did China start drilling 30 miles off our coasts? I'd be very interested in a link. Probably from The Onion.

It is old news about China drilling oil close to US shores.
I just heard about it today in the radio.
CHINA STARTS OIL DRILLING

I cannot figure out what is going on, I think individually Americans are often very smart,
but collectively I cant say that we are smart, just the opposite.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"LH normal, T low, primary."

In my understanding primary=(very high LH) and (lowT)
secondary=(very low to normal LH) and (low T)

Primary is just that, primary. Fatherhood not available. Practically equal to castration.
Secondary may have a grades. Even rather advanced secondary, should eventually be able to father child.

[zkt]

Originally Posted by JanSz

It is old news about China drilling oil close to US shores.
I just heard about it today in the radio.
CHINA STARTS OIL DRILLING

I cannot figure out what is going on, I think individually Americans are often very smart,
but collectively I cant say that we are smart, just the opposite.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"LH normal, T low, primary."

In my understanding primary=(very high LH) and (lowT)
secondary=(very low to normal LH) and (low T)

Primary is just that, primary. Fatherhood not available. Practically equal to castration.
Secondary may have a grades. Even rather advanced secondary, should eventually be able to father child.

Have I misread you ?
American free press ? Ever listen to Air America? Ed shultz, Thom Hartman ?
I got the idea from the health care discussion that you were a Busher.
Please tell me that I was wrong.

Agree that LH usually at first is high normal and T low or low normal in primary. But as the feedback system diminishes activity the pituitary can decrease its output over time.
And I also believe that either-or situitations in the body are rare. So even primary has grades. Low sperm count is common and due to lessened testicular output. Not to say that the testes cant, for all practicle purposes, shut down.
As for fathering a child- Why would you want to? Arent you my age ?
As I recall FSH, follicle stimulation hormone, initiates spermatogenesis -doesnt it. One subunit of the hcg of the hcg molecule is like LH and the other like FSH.
My thinking on the dosing is that a large initial dose will have the best chance of gettting the boys attention. To that end just injected 3000iu and had a dose of oxytocin and prolactin this morning. Just to be starting from a familiar baseline. Usually any subq or im dose of T and the libido returns the next day or day after the dose.

[cpeil2]

Originally Posted by zkt

Another thing to think about is the number of LH receptors in the testicles. Would`nt it be at least possible for the body to try and match that number to the quantity of LH available ? If that is so then it would take some time before the hcg had an effect. There is a body of anechdodal evidence indicating this.

Wouldn't that be a positive feedback loop? They're pretty rare in physiological systems. I seem to recall from physiology class that, at the time, there were two known positive feedback loops in the human system. It escapes me what they are.

[jinxie1]

Originally Posted by JanSz

It is old news about China drilling oil close to US shores.
I just heard about it today in the radio.
CHINA STARTS OIL DRILLING

I cannot figure out what is going on, I think individually Americans are often very smart,
but collectively I cant say that we are smart, just the opposite.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"LH normal, T low, primary."

In my understanding primary=(very high LH) and (lowT)
secondary=(very low to normal LH) and (low T)

Primary is just that, primary. Fatherhood not available. Practically equal to castration.
Secondary may have a grades. Even rather advanced secondary, should eventually be able to father child.

Incidentally, what I meant to say above was this: "You are getting the LH signal, but the testies are not responding to it."

At your age, your previous TT levels are quite normal. I think you are about 30 years older than me, and my TT levels were close to yours, and I bet my FT levels were lower than yours. Even then, I only qualified as being hypogonadal based on my FT. Given your levels, I don't know how anyone could properly dx you as being secondary. Your LH is above average (as noted, FSH would be more probative; my FSH was in the gutter, while my LH was average), and your TT is average for your age. Your body was working as intended, even if you don't feel as well as you could. Any by all means, that warrants medical intervention as far as I am concerned, which you have initiated.

I think we've beaten this one to death. I'm done. Good luck.

[zkt]

Originally Posted by cpeil2

Wouldn't that be a positive feedback loop? They're pretty rare in physiological systems. I seem to recall from physiology class that, at the time, there were two known positive feedback loops in the human system. It escapes me what they are.

That is an excellent point and one that I suspect is correct.
If true then does it imply that an initial loading dose of hcg is pointless ?
I dont know all that much about the mechanics of receptor action but have some familiarity with beta blockers and agonists as used for hypertension and bronchodilation. Perhaps the number of receptors is fixed and there is little or nothing that can be done about it.
Gotta review what I learned a while ago or, God forbid, look it all up again. But it feels right that a receptor can be blocked my altering the enzyme that allows the activating agent to bind to the receptor site.
Zetia, the dietary cholesterol lowering agent works by inhibiting the choleserolase enzyme in the small intestine and preventing it from binding to the chylomicron which would carry it to the liver. As I recall.
I dont recall just how the agonist works at the moment but suspect that the rate limiting step in the process is the quantity of enzyme present and the number of receptors, as you suggest, is fixed.
Furthermore, if the number of receptor sites were amenable to manipulation then wouldnt that be a very effective treatment for a myriad of problems ? Have never heard of that.
Thanks for straightening that out.

[jinxie1]

Originally Posted by zkt

Have I misread you ?
American free press ? Ever listen to Air America? Ed shultz, Thom Hartman ?
I got the idea from the health care discussion that you were a Busher.
Please tell me that I was wrong.

Agree that LH usually at first is high normal and T low or low normal in primary. But as the feedback system diminishes activity the pituitary can decrease its output over time.
And I also believe that either-or situitations in the body are rare. So even primary has grades. Low sperm count is common and due to lessened testicular output. Not to say that the testes cant, for all practicle purposes, shut down.
As for fathering a child- Why would you want to? Arent you my age ?
As I recall FSH, follicle stimulation hormone, initiates spermatogenesis -doesnt it. One subunit of the hcg of the hcg molecule is like LH and the other like FSH.
My thinking on the dosing is that a large initial dose will have the best chance of gettting the boys attention. To that end just injected 3000iu and had a dose of oxytocin and prolactin this morning. Just to be starting from a familiar baseline. Usually any subq or im dose of T and the libido returns the next day or day after the dose.

ZKT, who did you get Oxytocin? Compounding pharmacy?

[zkt]

Originally Posted by jinxie1

ZKT, who did you get Oxytocin? Compounding pharmacy?

Oxytocin is released as a pulse by the testes during orgasm and is a feedback chemical which supresses gonadatropin production in the hypothalmus which in turn supresses pituitary output of LH and FSH which supresses T production and spermatogenesis. It is the beginning of the biochemical steps leading to the not horney anymore and maybe feeling a liuttle cuddly after cumming. Makes a lot of sense from an evolutionary perspective and is an interesting process- dopamine and prolactin are also involved.
There has been interest lately in the trusting feeling it produces and some are trying to market it for that use.
I seriously doubt if it operates thru the olfactory system as marketed.

[zkt]

I t comes to mind that osteoarthritic joint remodeling could be considered as a positive feedback mechanism in that damage to the joint causes inflamation which enables the disolution and reformation of subchrondral bone which leads to osterphytes and subchondral cysts which cause more inflamation as the joint is used.