HCG Only Protocol and Secondary Hypogonadism

[forex]

Thanks to both DavidZ and Swale.

I just had my bloodwork tested Friday (4-1-05), I see my Doc this Friday the 8th to go over it with him; at that point I will also post all of my levels including progesterone (if it was tested). Where should my progesterone levels be?

Thanks for your concern Swale (I think I am on too much hCG too), I'll be back here with my results by this weeks end.

Have a great week guys!!

[Kroms_laugh]

So to answer my question;
HCG only protocol isn't optimal treatment?

"Test is best" - SWALE

[rjsiwelhj]

Thanks for the excellent and informative posts Swale, David and others.

I am still confused about one thing.

When coupled with daily non injected T supplementation, in your opinion, is it best to administer HCG daily or a couple injections per week. Let's assume daily injections don't bother the therapy recipient.

Thanks for any input.

[forex]

Originally Posted by Kroms_laugh

So to answer my question;
HCG only protocol isn't optimal treatment?

"Test is best" - SWALE

Based on my knowledge of the subject and what I am going through, I do not think it is an optimal solution. However on the same token; I have yet to try another form of TRT so I do not think I am able to give it a fair comparison, or give you a fair answer. I will be able to help more once I gain more history with TRT...

[Matt Muscle]

Originally Posted by forex

My libido increased out of the gate to the level og a 18 year old durring my first week... ever since then it is at the level of a late 20's male. Overall I am not pleased with how I feel on my present course of TRT.

I am 33, 225lbs- and on 1iu HGH Daily and 535units of hgh Daily (I think this is too much). B-4 I began therapy 4 mos ago my Free T was 49 (scale of 50-210), my E2 was 52 (scale of 10-50) an IGF-1 of 165.

After my last blood test 6 weeks ago (next one is tomorrow), my Free T is at 180 (scale 50-210) and E2 96 (scale 10-50) too high- and IGF-1 at 266 which is a good level to be at (250-350 range).

.

Hi Mate.. your libido is currently that of someone in thier late 20's and your 33... your not happy with this? May I say that expecting your libido to stay like an 18 year olds is perhaps asking too much...

Yes 535 units of HCG daily is way too much and will cause problems... i have tried this myself.. very likely a result of estrogen and progesterone as Swale says.

[SWALE]

Krom--You have not noticed all the times I have stated that HCG as sole TRT does not provide the subjective benefits of TRT?

[Kroms_laugh]

Originally Posted by SWALE

Krom--You have not noticed all the times I have stated that HCG as sole TRT does not provide the subjective benefits of TRT?

Too be honest, this is the first time I've really looked into it.

Selective reading, Doc.

/moves to the front row, assumes a straighter posture/

[SWALE]

I'm trying to come up with some clever, yet smart-alecky comment, but cannot.

Sorry.

[forex]

Originally Posted by Matt Muscle

Hi Mate.. your libido is currently that of someone in thier late 20's and your 33... your not happy with this? May I say that expecting your libido to stay like an 18 year olds is perhaps asking too much...

Yes 535 units of HCG daily is way too much and will cause problems... i have tried this myself.. very likely a result of estrogen and progesterone as Swale says.

Thanks Matt- I am happy with the libido.

What I meant was that I am not happy with the other feelings I am having; ie-mental cloudieness or lack of clarity, being tired, puffy fingers, excess H2O weight, the inability to shead my fat. Those are a few of the things that I am not pleased with.

[forex]

Originally Posted by DavidZ

I'm going to take Swale's suggestion of dividing my weekly HCG dosage up into daily dosages. If you know how much HCG you take a week, just divide that amount by 7 and that's a good starting point for your daily dosage if you want to go HCG only.

If you want to add T gel you'll need to adjust the HCG downward, accordingly. It's impossible to know how much T gel offsets how much HCG, because each man absorbs T gel at a different rate and each man responds to HCG at a different rate. You'll just have to take a good guess and then adjust based on blood tests and how you feel.

Thanks David, You seem to have an excellent knowledge of this subject. In order for me to present this properly to my Doc I have 2 questions for you (if you would be so kind) the answers you give me will help me in comming up with a starting point for the t-cream & hCG protocol.

1- How much (i know 500iu a day is WAT too much) hCG would be a good starting point each day, approx. range?

2- How much t-cream each day, again approx.?

Thanks again, I am seeink my Doc Friday, so hopefully he will work with this protocol.

[mranak]

Originally Posted by SWALE

Krom--You have not noticed all the times I have stated that HCG as sole TRT does not provide the subjective benefits of TRT?

I must confess that I've missed that point. I've have noticed your repeated mentioning that a _SERM_ "as sole TRT does not provide the subjective benefits of TRT."

I don't recall you really mentioning just hCG for TRT though. I recall something about how when your standard regimen doesn't work, you sometimes increase the hCG and decrease the exogenous testosterone.

<shrug>

[forex]

bump.

[SWALE]

Oh.

[earthdog]

Originally Posted by SWALE

Krom--You have not noticed all the times I have stated that HCG as sole TRT does not provide the subjective benefits of TRT?

I heard him say it, your honor!

Originally Posted by forex

Thanks David, You seem to have an excellent knowledge of this subject. In order for me to present this properly to my Doc I have 2 questions for you (if you would be so kind) the answers you give me will help me in comming up with a starting point for the t-cream & hCG protocol.

1- How much (i know 500iu a day is WAT too much) hCG would be a good starting point each day, approx. range?

2- How much t-cream each day, again approx.?

Forex, Swale's starting protocol for Androgel is 5g per day. Once hormonal levels are stabilized and balanced, as verified by labs after 2 weeks, he puts them on 250IU of hcg every third day. These are very general guidelines and depend upon labs, symptoms, patient history, etc. He has also stated that everyone is different, and there is not a cookie cutter approach to TRT.

But if you broke that hcg dose down to daily, it would work out to something like 83IU of hcg per day.

[DavidZ]

Originally Posted by earthdog

Forex, Swale's starting protocol for Androgel is 5g per day. Once hormonal levels are stabilized and balanced, as verified by labs after 2 weeks, he puts them on 250IU of hcg every third day. These are very general guidelines and depend upon labs, symptoms, patient history, etc. He has also stated that everyone is different, and there is not a cookie cutter approach to TRT.

But if you broke that hcg dose down to daily, it would work out to something like 83IU of hcg per day.

The required dosage of T gel varies significantly for each man probably due to the rate of absorbtion through the skin. The required dosage of HCG varies even more from man to man. When you mix the 2 together the problem becomes far more complex.

Optimally, to best figure out your TRT/HCG combo dosages, you would want to know the dosage of each alone that would put your T into the upper normal range. Let's say that 10 g of T gel per day alone might put you there. And 700 IU/week (100 IU/day) of HCG alone might put you there. With that knowledge, you could prorate the full dosages to get the appropriate partial dosages. For example, you could apply 5 g of T gel and 50 IU of HCG per day. Or you could apply 7 g of T gel and 30 IU per day, etc. The relationships are probably not perfectly linear, but that's a good basis for setting initial dosages with the combo protocol.