HCG only vs. TRT only vs. TRT/HCG Combo

[DLMCBBB]

Originally Posted by DavidZ

I was pointing out how this article WAS different from the "studies" you referenced. Namely, the huge increase in response from the first to the second HCG shot for men with secondary hypogonadism (not prepubertal boys)..

Noted.

What do HH subjects and Pre-pubertal boys have in common? And why would I bring this up at all?

Originally Posted by DavidZ

I stated this as "another possible explanation." I don't rule out other possible explanations, including restoration of H/P axis function.

Also, there's a big difference between saying Leydig cell mass and Leydig cell regeneration/restoration..

You might not rule out other possible explanations, but the notion of "PRIMING" the HP seems to be the only area in which you are sterring. How is it a big difference if Leydig cell mass is atrophied?

Dustin

[DavidZ]

Originally Posted by DLMCBBB

You might not rule out other possible explanations, but the notion of "PRIMING" the HP seems to be the only area in which you are sterring.

You are stuck on this issue. Not me.

The primary points I'm making in this thread regarding HCG are (a) that HCG dosing is very tricky, and (b) as a result, improper HCG dosing often yields results that are misinterpretted.

For whatever reason(!), the body gradually produces more T in response to a fixed dosage of HCG over time. I have been aware of this empirical fact for a few years now as I have gradually reduced my HCG dosage over the 5 years that I have been on an HCG only protocol. My personal experience as well as the sources cited earlier in this thread (Dr. Shippen's opinions, the Medline article, etc.) have caused me to wonder why the gradual increase in responsiveness to HCG occurs. While it's an worthwhile exercise to theorize why this gradual increase in responsiveness to HCG occurs, that's not what's relevant to this thread. What's relevant to this thread is THAT it occurs, not WHY it occurs.

My point in stating this thread was to compare the 3 protocols listed in the title. You can't compare these 3 protocols fairly, unless you fully understand how to properly dosage HCG.

[SWALE]

Good discussion, guys.

If a man has not had his Leydig cells stimulated by LH for some time, as is true for secondary hypogonadism, then stimulaitng them will indeed restore their activity to some extent, over time. This is no surprise.

Here is what would be absolutely necessary to prove that HCG primes the HP to produce more LH: serial measurements of increased LH production. Has anyone ever proven that actually happens?

BTW, I hope it does!

[DLMCBBB]

Originally Posted by SWALE

Here is what would be absolutely necessary to prove that HCG primes the HP to produce more LH: serial measurements of increased LH production. Has anyone ever proven that actually happens?

BTW, I hope it does!

SWALE, why do I get a vision of young bodybuilder looking bros at their local grocery store ordering stocks of LH surge kits LOL.

I always got a kick out of your comments on androgel or hCG:

"How on earth could you administer a medication which is well-proven to induce inhibition, in order to treat inhibition? That would be like promoting unsafe sex in order to end illigitamacy and STD's".

Dustin

[SWALE]

...always looking to apply good 'ol farmer's logic.