Hello -- Subq Test Cyp questions

[Sonny]

Hi Guys,

Long time, no talk. I've been under Marianco's care for about 7 months now. I was diagnosed with adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism. It's been a challenge to get that under control, but I think we're heading in the right direction.

I had been on Nolvadex @ 20mg/day for the last year, but we are going to switch back to more conventional protocol. My Total T, Free T, E2, and DHT all look good on Nolva alone. However, sex drive has been non-existent and I feel very weak in the gym.

Seems like many of you are doing your T Cyp injections subq now. Very interesting.

Couple of questions:

1) It sounds like .25cc 2x per week (200mg/ml of Test Cyp) is a good starting point. Yes?
2) Have you guys found differences in E2 control based on where you inject? Ie, thigh, abs, etc?
3) I'm assuming that you grab a fold a skin just as if doing an HCG injection? One hand on the fold and the other on the syringe?
4) I've pushed T Cyp through a 25g needle before. It took a lot of effort. Is it hard to maintain control with a 27g needle while holding onto a skin-fold?

Cheers,
Sonny

[pmgamer18]

I Sonny I need to pick your brains a litte what are you doing to treat your Thyroid and Adrenals.

As to your questions:
1) I do 50 mgs. of 200 mgs./ml of Depo T every 3 days and the 2 days each I do 250 IU's of HCG. I use a 27g 1ml x 1/2" lg. needle shooting into my thigh. No pinching skin. I tried doing the subQ shots into my belly but is hurts and stings a good 4 hrs. I feel doing them subQ and the way I am are about the same.

2) Yes this keeps my E2 way down before this I was taking 1mg of Arimidex everyday now I do .5 mgs every other day.

4) No problem I pull the T out of the vile this way. I pull the plunger all the way down and just hold it for about a min. the T comes out slow. Buy all you need is .25cc or .25mls this is a small amount. Shooting it is slow and you should shoot T slow. I can't say if my shoots into my thigh are subQ lets say it is a half assed subQ shot.

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by pmgamer18

I Sonny I need to pick your brains a litte what are you doing to treat your Thyroid and Adrenals.

As to your questions:
1) I do 50 mgs. of 200 mgs./ml of Depo T every 3 days and the 2 days each I do 250 IU's of HCG. I use a 27g 1ml x 1/2" lg. needle shooting into my thigh. No pinching skin. I tried doing the subQ shots into my belly but is hurts and stings a good 4 hrs. I feel doing them subQ and the way I am are about the same.

2) Yes this keeps my E2 way down before this I was taking 1mg of Arimidex everyday now I do .5 mgs every other day.

4) No problem I pull the T out of the vile this way. I pull the plunger all the way down and just hold it for about a min. the T comes out slow. Buy all you need is .25cc or .25mls this is a small amount. Shooting it is slow and you should shoot T slow. I can't say if my shoots into my thigh are subQ lets say it is a half assed subQ shot.

Phil you are at 75 mgs a day now need to get a new copy and paster LOL

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by hardasnails1973

Phil you are at 75 mgs a day now need to get a new copy and paster LOL

I did not what to post high does it will be to much for him.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by hardasnails1973

Phil you are at 75 mgs a day now need to get a new copy and paster LOL

Originally Posted by pmgamer18

I did not what to post high does it will be to much for him.

I do not do T shots so please bear with me.
Phil, you have recently discovered that you are secondary, that is your testis (supported by HCG) produce some testosterone.
Your current dose 75mgs puts you at the right T level.
I think I am primary, my testis are for decoration only.
That would mean that 75mg/every three days would not be a good enough for me, right??
What would be the right dose?

[Sonny]

Hey guys:

So is the better E2 control a result of injecting twice a week (less of a spike) or due to the fact that you're using fat (and not muscle) as a reservoir? Or both?

Sonny

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by JanSz

I do not do T shots so please bear with me.
Phil, you have recently discovered that you are secondary, that is your testis (supported by HCG) produce some testosterone.
Your current dose 75mgs puts you at the right T level.
I think I am primary, my testis are for decoration only.
That would mean that 75mg/every three days would not be a good enough for me, right??
What would be the right dose?

Yes last yr. I found out after being on TRT for 23yrs and being told I am Primary. I added in to my shots HCG 500 IU's 3 x's a week and my levels doubled TT wnet from 600 to 1200. I had a bad auto accident some 24 yrs ago and went down hill after it. I had a bad head injury and it damaged my pituitary. So it's called Hypopituitary you can't go by someone TRT and dose's thinking you will do the same it does not work like that we are all not the same. Most do good at 100 mgs of T shoots everyweek or 43 mg shoots every 3 days.

[pmgamer18]

I think it's both your shooting less more offten and into fat is slower getting into the blood.

Originally Posted by Sonny

Hey guys:

So is the better E2 control a result of injecting twice a week (less of a spike) or due to the fact that you're using fat (and not muscle) as a reservoir? Or both?

Sonny

[wildfox]

Originally Posted by Sonny

Hey guys:

So is the better E2 control a result of injecting twice a week (less of a spike) or due to the fact that you're using fat (and not muscle) as a reservoir? Or both?

Sonny

More frequent shots of lower doses is what Phil meant. He said he shoots into the thigh (that would be the vastus lateralis, the outer thigh, away from the groin). Shooting cyp into belly fat sounds painful.

Is Dr. Marianco telling you you need to start TRT?

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by wildfox

More frequent shots of lower doses is what Phil meant. He said he shoots into the thigh (that would be the vastus lateralis, the outer thigh, away from the groin). Shooting cyp into belly fat sounds painful.

Is Dr. Marianco telling you you need to start TRT?

Yes this is how I do my shots because it to me stings for about 4 hrs. I do use a 27g x 1/2" lg. needle to do my shots so it can be called a half ass subQ shot. Read this study.
================================================== =======================
STABLE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ACHIEVED
WITH SUBCUTANEOUS TESTOSTERONE
INJECTIONS
M.B. Greenspan, C.M. Chang
Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, McMaster University,
Hamilton, ON, Canada
Objectives: The preferred technique of androgen replacement
has been intramuscular (IM) testosterone, but wide
variations in testosterone levels are often seen. Subcutaneous
(SC) testosterone injection is a novel approach; however,
its physiological effects are unclear. We therefore investigated
the sustainability of stable testosterone levels using
SC therapy. Patients and methods: Between May and
September 2005, we conducted a small pilot study involving
10 male patients with symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism.
Every patient had been stable on TE 200 mg IM for
41 year. Patients were instructed to self-inject with
testosterone enanthate (TE) 100 mg SC (DELATESTRYL
200 mg/cc, Theramed Corp, Canada) into the anterior
abdomen once weekly. Some patients were down-titrated
to 50 mg based on their total testosterone (T) at 4 weeks.
Informed consent was obtained as SC testosterone administration
is not officially approved by Health Canada. T
levels were measured before and 24 hours after injection
during weeks 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 96 hours after injection
in week 6 and 8. At week 12, PSA, CBC, and T levels
were measured however; the week 12 data are still being
collected. Results: Prior to initiation of SC therapy, T
was 19.14+3.48 nmol/l, hemoglobin 15.8+1.3 g/dl, hematocrit
0.47+0.02, and PSA 1.05+0.65 ng/ml. During
the first 4 weeks, there was a steady increase in
pre-injection T from 19.14+3.48 to 23.89+9.15 nmol/l
(p¼0.1). However, after 8 weeks the post-injection T
(25.77+7.67 nmol/l) remained similar to that of week 1
(27.46+12.91 nmol/l). Patients tolerated this therapy with
no adverse effects. Conclusions: A once-week SC injection
of 50–100 mg of TE appears to achieve sustainable and
stable levels of physiological T. This technique offers
fewer physician visits and the use of smaller quantity of
medication, thus lower costs. However, the long term
clinical and physiological effects of this therapy need further
evaluation.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by wildfox

More frequent shots of lower doses is what Phil meant. He said he shoots into the thigh (that would be the vastus lateralis, the outer thigh, away from the groin). Shooting cyp into belly fat sounds painful.

Is Dr. Marianco telling you you need to start TRT?

phil: Your help, as always, is much appreciated.

wildfox: I've been on TRT in one form or another since 2004. We're simply switching from Nolvadex only back to a more conventional regimen. I feel like SWALE was correct in his statement that SERMS give you the numbers you want to see, but not the subjective benefits like energy, libido, and body composition.

I was on the Test Cyp 100mg/week + HCG 500iu/week (ie, SWALE protocol) regimen for awhile, but had to stop because I was frequently getting dizzy after the T Cyp injection. Nobody could figure out why. On my first visit to Dr M, he hypothesized that the T Cyp was causing a reduction in thyroid function. He was right. I hadn't been regularly checking TSH, but I did find 2 labs that clearly showed a sharp rise in TSH after administering the T Cyp. Now that I'm on Armour Thyroid, I'm pretty sure that the SWALE protocol will work much better.

Cheers,
Sonny

[Mmartin]

Sonny,

If you don't mind, are you able to elaborate at all about the dizziness? I ask only because I have been struggling with the same problem since I began TRT, and nothing helps besides Adderall.

Thanks,
Morgan

[coz]

Originally Posted by Sonny

Hi Guys,

Long time, no talk. I've been under Marianco's care for about 7 months now. I was diagnosed with adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism. It's been a challenge to get that under control, but I think we're heading in the right direction.

I had been on Nolvadex @ 20mg/day for the last year, but we are going to switch back to more conventional protocol. My Total T, Free T, E2, and DHT all look good on Nolva alone. However, sex drive has been non-existent and I feel very weak in the gym.

Seems like many of you are doing your T Cyp injections subq now. Very interesting.

Couple of questions:

1) It sounds like .25cc 2x per week (200mg/ml of Test Cyp) is a good starting point. Yes?
2) Have you guys found differences in E2 control based on where you inject? Ie, thigh, abs, etc?
3) I'm assuming that you grab a fold a skin just as if doing an HCG injection? One hand on the fold and the other on the syringe?
4) I've pushed T Cyp through a 25g needle before. It took a lot of effort. Is it hard to maintain control with a 27g needle while holding onto a skin-fold?

Cheers,
Sonny

Hi Sonny, Have you tried lowering your dose of novladex to see if your system can run on its own ? What happens to your levels then ?

[Sonny]

Morgan: I don't know all of the details behind this, but here is a rough breakdown. In most people, Testosterone improves thyroid function. Apparently, there are some people who experience impaired thyroid function when given Testosterone. I seem to fall into this group. When your thyroid is sub-optimal, your adrenals will usually work harder to compensate. I am not sure if it is a result of low thyroid function or adrenal fatigue, but the dizziness results from one or both. A common symptom of adrenal fatigue is dizziness when standing up since your adrenal's are not capable of maintaining blood pressure as you stand.

coz: When we made the decision to go from Nolva @ 20mg/day to T Cyp + HCG, I tapered off of Nolvadex. I did about 2 weeks at 10mg and then 2 weeks at 0mg. I can definitely say that I felt worse at 10mg of Nolvadex vs 20mg of Nolvadex. I don't like to base decisions off of just one experience, so maybe someday I'll try it again.

Sonny

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by Sonny

Morgan: I don't know all of the details behind this, but here is a rough breakdown. In most people, Testosterone improves thyroid function. Apparently, there are some people who experience impaired thyroid function when given Testosterone. I seem to fall into this group. When your thyroid is sub-optimal, your adrenals will usually work harder to compensate. I am not sure if it is a result of low thyroid function or adrenal fatigue, but the dizziness results from one or both. A common symptom of adrenal fatigue is dizziness when standing up since your adrenal's are not capable of maintaining blood pressure as you stand.

coz: When we made the decision to go from Nolva @ 20mg/day to T Cyp + HCG, I tapered off of Nolvadex. I did about 2 weeks at 10mg and then 2 weeks at 0mg. I can definitely say that I felt worse at 10mg of Nolvadex vs 20mg of Nolvadex. I don't like to base decisions off of just one experience, so maybe someday I'll try it again.

Sonny

To break this down easily and does this make sense

Increasing testosterone can cause adrenal fatigue in people for the fact that increasing the thyroid can put undue stress on the adrenals causing them lower out put.

Reverse is true
Increasing testosterone can decrease thyroid due to the fact that adrenals are already burned out and thyroid can not get into the cell with out proper levels of cortisol