Men's Health Forum: This is a discussion on Help me please -- Finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high E within the Anabolic Steroids forums, part of the extensive steroid information at MESO-Rx; HCG - has a similar structure to LH and that hormone tells your balls to produce testosterone . Taking too ...
Re: Help me please -- Finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high
HCG - has a similar structure to LH and that hormone tells your balls to produce testosterone. Taking too much of HCG will screw up your balls and it will cause your balls not to respond to LH correctly which is dangerous. If you read BigAK PCT(listed in one of the links below), then you will see that it took him 2 yrs to recover. Also, he conveyed that information via private messages to me that he took too much HCG which caused him to relapse.
for me, i need hcg to revive my balls b/c my balls are not responding to LH correctly (emperical data from my lab work). I took finasteride for about 6 month and that screwed up the communication between my brain (HPTA) and testes. Using this PCT, will hopefully restore the HPTA communication and produce the right amount of testosterone for my body. The Nolvadex is used to restore the sensitivity of my pituitary to GnRH and produce enough LH to sustain my balls. Guess what, if you don't have enough LH in your system then your balls will shut down and you will have low testosterone. Right now, I have low free testosterone which I'm trying to increase with PCT.
There are plenty of ways to increase free testosterone if you have normal total testosterone:
1. take proviron to bind to SBHG and that should increase the free testosterone
2. take Arimidex to bind to aromatase which converts testosterone/dht into estrogen
- since i took finasteride which block the enzyme conversion of testosterone -> estrogen
which gave me very bad side effects and i don't want to tell someone to use a drug that
disables enzymes.
Read the following links to bring yourself up to speed about stuff: (read all pages)
don't give up man b/c many people are in your situation. You are not the only one, buddy and we're in this together. From your description about sperm quantity, you probably have low FSH that stimulates your balls to produce sperm, so Nolvadex should help.
I sent you a private message before i read your posting, since i'm up to date now, i think you should try this pct program.
10 ML Presealed Vial (Clear)
Alcohol Prep Pads. 200 per box.
Bacteriostatic Water
Insulin Syringe with Needle GPZ Services
obviously consult your doctor first and don't go taking any random thing that people suggest. People don't give a rat's ass about your safety and this is why you need to advocate for yourself. My doctor does not know how to help me which is why i have been reading up and learning as much as i can about the endocrine system. There are so many pct protocols and you have to find the right one for you. For some, taking clomid, nolvadex, and hcg, seems to work, since there are people on this forum where clomid gave bad side effects, that is why i would recommend against it.
Mike Scally (Steroids with Michael Scally, M.D. #1 - Clomid, Nolvadex, hCG, PCT and HPTA Normalization)recommends that ppl take 1000IU hcg every other day but I seen a lot of people take 250-500 IU every other day and it works fine. I read that clomid is counter productive because it suppress pituitary sensitive to GnRH and it causes joints along with eye problems (eeso on this forum told me), so don't take this unless everything else fails. Read Scally's article about correcting HPTA, but don't follow the clomid suggestion.
Many ppl are anxious to correct their problems and will jump head first into something or feel that if they take a lot of a particular drug it will cure them... and that is totally bogus. Just be patient and see how other people respond to treatment then follow what they did.
So far, I'm like the only one I've seen that had propecia side effects and deciding to use van-man's PCT protocol with Nolvadex tapering off to correct finasteride related issues. I will post my findings regularly so u know if this is the right treatment for u.
Read this article about SERM drugs and how it restored HPG function in a 29 old steroid user. i found this link somewhere on this forum but don't know where. I wish i could attribute this to someone and don't want to take credit for it.
Re: Help me please -- Finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high
I hope you succeed keep me posted. At this point i have two problems and some questions..
One is the chronic fatigue/ low testo low cortisol levels and small balls
Second is the side effects from CIpro and Hydrocortisone afterwards (a crap combination of drug even if one follows the other with weeks in between). Those sides involve, intracranial pressure changes, blur and double vision, floaters, joint problems and so on. If i take HcG and Nolva i must be very careful because chagnes in blood viscosity can really devastate my head even more. So i have to search this one alot.
Now regarding the qeustions.
Right after propecia use i got this prostatitis problem, and i wonder if it is useful taking HcG/novla before trying to correct it?? Maybe treating that finasteride induced prostatitis somehow
can help revive some penile function. Do you also have any form of prostatitis?
Do you also have decreased in size penis and testicles and if so, what sort of decrease are we talking about???
What about blood tests, i havent seen any tests of yours around, maybe i didnt notice them
I took a 2500 IU ampule and mixed it with 4ml of bateriostatic water. I used a fresh syringe to mix draw the water and put it into the sterile vial until I added another 3 ml. I added 1ml of bateriostatic water to the 2500 IU ampule and then draw 1 ml of the mixture into the sterile vial leaving me with 4 ml.
So based on my calculation:
(how much I want to take/size of ampule) x bateriostatic water ml = number of cc to inject
( 250 IU / 2500 IU ) x 4 ml = 0.40 cc
Guess what, i fucked up and was so impatient that I injected myself with 1cc which is equivalent to 625 IU of hcg. I injected myself at 10pm and got a big rush and could not sleep well. The feeling was analogous to drinking coffee before bed, so all i could do was toss and turn to go to sleep. I didn't take nolvadex b/c i wanted to see the difference between hcg alone and nolvadex w/ hcg.
Saturday, December 27,2008
Well I woke up with the same erections and really didn't see much a difference. I think I felt one episode of spontaneous erection at work during the day. I don't remember if I had spontaneous erections at work like that before but just wanted it to be noted.
I took my first nolvadex pill at 10pm and went to bed b/c I was tired. I felt like my head was in a vise and squeezing in on my sinuses. It didn't hurt but it was a momentary experience and wanted to let you know. My body did feel a little strange and wondered if I bought legit stuff. I think I did or at least I hope so.
Sunday, December 28, 2008
My nocturnal erections were more noticable without me touching my pecker to know that it was there. It just felt stronger this time around. Got out of bed to go to work and at work I a slight spontenous erection. I noticed that I have two pimple on my left cheek and I don't normally get any pimples which is kinda strange. I believe it is related to the PCT protocol that I'm doing right now. I'll keep you posted if I get any improvements or side effects. I pray that I don't get any negative sides from this.
Tonight I took HCG out of the fridge and pump 0.40 cc into my left upper thigh. This time I didn't feel the energy rush like I did the other day. I only took about 250 IU which is a little bit lower but enough not to desensitize my balls. I also took 20 mg of nolvadex at night on a semi full stomach.
I had thoughts about taking HGH today b/c I think it would help cure some of the libido issues I been having. I don't feel as young as I use to and think it will help me get that feeling back.
Monday, December 29, 2008
I've gotten a slight headache yesterday afternoon and again today at 6-8pm. It is the type of headache that is barely noticeable and important to mention just to see if there is any correlation to taking nolvadex.
My nocturnal erections a weaker than that have normally been but it is good. I use to have a hard time sleeping but taking nolvadex has assisted with my sleep quality. By no means, am i knocked the fuck out but i dream regularly, sleep without issues with the occasional toss and turn. My balls are growing from 2 days of hcg shots they are bigger in circumference and i'm unsure about length wise. both my left and right nuts are bigger. My unscientific measuring device is my middle finger and thumb which i hold one testicle between the fingers and roll the nut across my finger.
Took 20mg of Nolvadex at 10pm and today is an off day for HCG.
Tuesday, December 30, 2008
Yesterday, I went to bed at 12:30am which normally I sleep at 10:30pm due to exhaustion. I think the boys are kicking in people and producing testosterone b/c I had energy yesterday and didn't feel sleepy. When i woke up today I was pitching a tent and was definitely 80% erect. Generally, i wake up and 30 secs later my dick goes flaccid, but today I was just chillin with my erected pecker for 30 mins and did not go down. I was feeling my balls too and they seems much bigger from the day before. I went to pee and using the same measuing procedure i noticed that me balls were definitely bigger.
I have been on this protocol for 4 days now and feel that my energy has definitely increase. I sing to myself... I don't get emotional about things like i did before this protocol. My spirits are up and don't know if there's more testosterone in my blood or estrogen is being blocked from the receptor, or a combination of both. all i know that something is working. I didn't get any headaches today, but my left hip has started to ache and it could be nolvadex affecting my joints. I will continue to post any afflictions i get while on this protocol.
Today, i scheduled an appointment w/ the doc to get my lab results prior to pct. I've gone off the reservation and have bypassed his advice. He has admitted that he does not know how to cure my situation which is why I'm self administering my own treatment. (This is a long freakin entry and how the computer doesn't or i'm screwed b/c i'm not typing the bullshit again) there has not been a doctor that i went to ever hearing about these side effects, let alone, how to treat this shit. I'm done about ranting about my doctors. Meso is the only doctor i need
oh, i forgot to mention that there is defintely water retention in my face and my eyes lids are puffy which started when i took nolvadex.
Pretty soon, I'll be taking 250 iu of hcg and 20 milligram of nolvadex at 10pm.
I found this article that says estrogen impairs cortisol production and who knows maybe nolvadex will restore your cortisol levels. You'll need to ask pmgamer18 for his input b/c he posted that snipet below.
Cortisol impairment. Studies have shown that estrogen
inhibits cortisol synthesis by specific interference
with enzyme activity,13 thereby exacerbating a cortisol
deficiency and initiating hormonal imbalances.
I took a 2500 IU ampule and mixed it with 4ml of bateriostatic water. I used a fresh syringe to mix draw the water and put it into the sterile vial until I added another 3 ml. I added 1ml of bateriostatic water to the 2500 IU ampule and then draw 1 ml of the mixture into the sterile vial leaving me with 4 ml.
So based on my calculation:
(how much I want to take/size of ampule) x bateriostatic water ml = number of cc to inject
( 250 IU / 2500 IU ) x 4 ml = 0.40 cc
Guess what, i fucked up and was so impatient that I injected myself with 1cc which is equivalent to 625 IU of hcg. I injected myself at 10pm and got a big rush and could not sleep well. The feeling was analogous to drinking coffee before bed, so all i could do was toss and turn to go to sleep. I didn't take nolvadex b/c i wanted to see the difference between hcg alone and nolvadex w/ hcg.
Saturday, December 27,2008
Well I woke up with the same erections and really didn't see much a difference. I think I felt one episode of spontaneous erection at work during the day. I don't remember if I had spontaneous erections at work like that before but just wanted it to be noted.
I took my first nolvadex pill at 10pm and went to bed b/c I was tired. I felt like my head was in a vise and squeezing in on my sinuses. It didn't hurt but it was a momentary experience and wanted to let you know. My body did feel a little strange and wondered if I bought legit stuff. I think I did or at least I hope so.
Sunday, December 28, 2008
My nocturnal erections were more noticable without me touching my pecker to know that it was there. It just felt stronger this time around. Got out of bed to go to work and at work I a slight spontenous erection. I noticed that I have two pimple on my left cheek and I don't normally get any pimples which is kinda strange. I believe it is related to the PCT protocol that I'm doing right now. I'll keep you posted if I get any improvements or side effects. I pray that I don't get any negative sides from this.
Tonight I took HCG out of the fridge and pump 0.40 cc into my left upper thigh. This time I didn't feel the energy rush like I did the other day. I only took about 250 IU which is a little bit lower but enough not to desensitize my balls. I also took 20 mg of nolvadex at night on a semi full stomach.
I had thoughts about taking HGH today b/c I think it would help cure some of the libido issues I been having. I don't feel as young as I use to and think it will help me get that feeling back.
Monday, December 29, 2008
I've gotten a slight headache yesterday afternoon and again today at 6-8pm. It is the type of headache that is barely noticeable and important to mention just to see if there is any correlation to taking nolvadex.
My nocturnal erections a weaker than that have normally been but it is good. I use to have a hard time sleeping but taking nolvadex has assisted with my sleep quality. By no means, am i knocked the fuck out but i dream regularly, sleep without issues with the occasional toss and turn. My balls are growing from 2 days of hcg shots they are bigger in circumference and i'm unsure about length wise. both my left and right nuts are bigger. My unscientific measuring device is my middle finger and thumb which i hold one testicle between the fingers and roll the nut across my finger.
Took 20mg of Nolvadex at 10pm and today is an off day for HCG.
Tuesday, December 30, 2008
Yesterday, I went to bed at 12:30am which normally I sleep at 10:30pm due to exhaustion. I think the boys are kicking in people and producing testosterone b/c I had energy yesterday and didn't feel sleepy. When i woke up today I was pitching a tent and was definitely 80% erect. Generally, i wake up and 30 secs later my dick goes flaccid, but today I was just chillin with my erected pecker for 30 mins and did not go down. I was feeling my balls too and they seems much bigger from the day before. I went to pee and using the same measuing procedure i noticed that me balls were definitely bigger.
I have been on this protocol for 4 days now and feel that my energy has definitely increase. I sing to myself... I don't get emotional about things like i did before this protocol. My spirits are up and don't know if there's more testosterone in my blood or estrogen is being blocked from the receptor, or a combination of both. all i know that something is working. I didn't get any headaches today, but my left hip has started to ache and it could be nolvadex affecting my joints. I will continue to post any afflictions i get while on this protocol.
Today, i scheduled an appointment w/ the doc to get my lab results prior to pct. I've gone off the reservation and have bypassed his advice. He has admitted that he does not know how to cure my situation which is why I'm self administering my own treatment. (This is a long freakin entry and how the computer doesn't or i'm screwed b/c i'm not typing the bullshit again) there has not been a doctor that i went to ever hearing about these side effects, let alone, how to treat this shit. I'm done about ranting about my doctors. Meso is the only doctor i need
oh, i forgot to mention that there is defintely water retention in my face and my eyes lids are puffy which started when i took nolvadex.
Pretty soon, I'll be taking 250 iu of hcg and 20 milligram of nolvadex at 10pm.
oneday;
on AM board there is a guy , for last couple of years his TRT consist of HCG+Arimidex only.
He changes from time to time, but it is about
(1000-1250iu)EOD
His name is colkurtz_spf
There is also a guy jinxie, he was on similar system for a while but lately changed to T+hcg+arimidex
The idea is to use as much as possible of HCG.
Other than raise of testosterone you will see raise in e2.
So the dose of HCG is limited by how much of E2 you can control with 1.5mg/week of arimidex.
Actually this is better way to look at TRT.
Then, if there is not enough BAT-BioAvailableTestosterone, just add the missing amount with T-shots or transdermal-T.
T-shot when DHT is ok
Transdermal-T if you low on DHT
.
.
.
thanks for your response and recommendation. I thought about taking Arimidex to boost my free testosterone but found postings on meso by van-man and vehemently recommended against AI's.
AI's of all variety are becoming notorious for their propensity toward significantly increased estrogen sensitivity in all areas of the body. (brain, breast tissue, etc.) Sure, it gives the false impression of a wonderful PCT during use, but after the AI clears one should expect to have a complete HPTA stall and instant gyno from seemingly normal levels of estrogen.
I have seen a few people who didn't get the gyno after use, but everyone I've seen has stalled and thus, had to start PCT all over again.
And you see him here because some people think he's edgy, but his days are numbered I'm sure.
Think about it, ppl took finasteride (5ar Inhibitor) to block conversion of testosterone to dht, and now, ppl want to take Arimidex (Aromatase Inhibitor) to block conversion of androgen into estrodiol... i'm sorry, but I messed up once before with FIN and I honestly believe that FIN stalled my HPTA and using FIN's cousin Arimidex will just do the same.
Since my balls have decreased in size over the last 2 years, I really think that reviving the Leydig cells along with increased LH,FSH from the Pituitary via nolva usage, that it will bring me back to my former self. Things will never be the same again, but I just want to restore at 90-95 % what I had.
You mentioned using a higher dosage of HCG and I may do that, but it will be dependent on my labs and testicular volume. First, I'll take some vitamin E as prescribed by Anthony Roberts in his article Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) by Anthony Roberts where he states that it increases the responsiveness of plasma testosterone levels to HCG.
I will stay the course and the treatment that has been outlined above. I may increase HCG to 300 - 500 iu tho, but I have to see how things develop during the week. Thanks.
Today is day 5 of my pct protocol and yesterday I took 250 iu hCG in my right butt cheek and nolva @ 12:30am (i was suppose to take the pct @10pm but I was typing all night and lost track of time). I didn’t sleep well yesterday b/c circadian rhythm is much attuned lately ever since I took hCG and nolvadex. Every weekend I wake up at 5:30am to go to work and on my off days I still wake up at 5:30am but go back to sleep with brief episodes of awakenings. Prior to PCT, I would never have a compeling desire to wake up at 5:30 and just would sleep through it. It is tolerable and I’m not going to stress about it.
When I woke up this morning, there was a mild morning erection and balls seem maybe 1-2% smaller, but it is a 48% improvement since I’ve started this PCT. At first, I thought that the hcg I used were deteriorating and may have to mix another vial. I noticed that my balls get bigger on the off days when I’m not taking hcg, so I’ll wait till tomorrow for results. Here are links about how long HCG will last:
Sure, I had thoughts about jacking up the dosage of hcG b/c I didn’t see any results, but I had to calm myself down. C’mon it is only 5 days since I began this protocol, so I want to think with logic and not with my balls. Haha. Also I thought that maybe shooting hcg into my butt cheek could have been a reason why it was ineffective but like I said, I’m going to calm down and wait.
It has been 2 yrs since coming off of propecia and I don’t really remember the size of my balls prefinasteride, so there’s nothing to compare it to. It may be possible that they are back to their normal size and will need to rely on lab test to determine if there’s an increase in testosterone.
In a prior posting, I mentioned that I had headaches and hip pain, and have not had those symptoms today. I don’t feel any emotion side effects from this PCT protocol, unless you consider happiness a side effect.
Semen quality has improved lately and it is not as watery as it used to be. Orgasms seems muted and not as pleasurable, maybe it is a direct side effect of nolva. As for erection strength, I’m going to say that erections are stronger under this protocol then without it.
Keeping a journal like this is a pain, but it is part of the healing process. It serves as documentation and a audit trail for me and others to review.
So, this is day 6 and I noticed that my nocturnal erections are weaker than usual (prior to pct) but they are more frequent and consistent throughout the night. Every time I wake up from my sleep i notice that I'm erected. This seems natural b/c we're suppose to get erections during REM sleep, so far, my dreams are not sexually explicit (i wish it was tho b/c i haven't had a wet dream in 3 yrs) and they are just the typical dreams about work, or about day to day stuff, but i have been dreaming about a female co worker (she's married) lately.
First thing this morning, i woke up i felt my ball size and it was firm. i think the lower half of my testes are filling in. I'm going to bump up the dosage of hcg to 300 iu hcg and pump it into my thigh sub q bc i think i get better results that way. I'm going to go out and buy some 1000 iu Vitamin E to enhance the affects of hcg on the testicles (Read about this combo by forum users and Anthony Roberts).
After checking out the balls, i decided to test myself with a little youporn.com to see if there has been any improvement between visual stimulation and arousal. Prior to pct, there were days where visual stimulation was not enough and i had to assist it with physcial stimulation to get excited. Well, just watching some milf got it going and mr jones went from flaccid to who is yo DADDY. It was completely erect 90% and lasted for 10-15 minutes. Over the past few days, the structure of my dick looked healthy. It doesn't look wrinklely, prune like, or scared like it has during the past few years and my gential skin was smooth, as well as relaxed.
Just as a follow up, I don't have anymore headaches and maybe the headaches were a temporary side effect of my body getting use to nolvadex. Also, I haven't gotten any left hip pain since that day i complained about it. I hope that it doesn't come back.
Tonight i will be taking vitamin e, hcg, and nolvadex at 10:30pm.
Happy Years People. I hope that everyone has a joyful new beginning, along with continued success throughout the year. oneday
Re: Help me please -- Finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high 
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