Indolplex/DIM as a standalone supplement---I am not on TRT

[Taoist]

Hi,

Just been reading through some fantastic in depth posts on this section.

I wanted to ask whether anyone uses Indolplex/ DIM here as a standalone product or in combination as an aid to promoting healthy natural testosterone levels?

Most of the posts I have read appear to refer to be from people on TRT.
I am not on TRT but at the age of 30 would like to do what I can to maintain good T levels, so am more interested in whether anyone feels it is a worthwhile product as part of a daily supplement and training regime?

Thanx

[mranak]

Without blood work, you are blind to what you are really doing. For example, the DIM may be beneficial for one man that has high estrognes but bad for another that brings his estrogen down too low.

[mranak]

Oh yeah...welcome to the board!

[1cc]

Originally Posted by Taoist

Hi,

I am not on TRT but at the age of 30 would like to do what I can to maintain good T levels, so am more interested in whether anyone feels it is a worthwhile product as part of a daily supplement and training regime?

If your hormones are ok, then I would advise you not to mess with them. People normally have a lot of trouble balancing their hormones and figuring out the right doses, especially of DIM. At some point in your life, you are going to need HRT, and will have an incentive to put up with all the aggravation of getting your hormones balanced. In the mean time, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by Taoist

Hi,

Just been reading through some fantastic in depth posts on this section.

I wanted to ask whether anyone uses Indolplex/ DIM here as a standalone product or in combination as an aid to promoting healthy natural testosterone levels?

Most of the posts I have read appear to refer to be from people on TRT.
I am not on TRT but at the age of 30 would like to do what I can to maintain good T levels, so am more interested in whether anyone feels it is a worthwhile product as part of a daily supplement and training regime?

Thanx

Do you have any problems that would lead you to believe you need this. Like Low Libido, ED, trouble reaching an orgasm, brain fog, hot feeling and sweating a lot, panic attacks and skin rashs.

[marianco]

Originally Posted by Taoist

I wanted to ask whether anyone uses Indolplex/ DIM here as a standalone product or in combination as an aid to promoting healthy natural testosterone levels?

DIM blocks some Estrogen metabolic pathways in such a way as to shunt Estrogen metabolism toward non-anabolic/non-proliferative/non-cancer-causing/weaker Estrogens. Thus on balance, Estrogen activity is weakened, in favor of existing Testosterone, Progesterone, Thyroid Hormone activity - these four hormones being crucial when in balance for optimum functioning.

By weakening Estrogen activity, less Sex Hormone Binding Globulin is made, less Thyroid Hormone Binding Globulin is made. This ends up freeing more Testosterone and Thyroid Hormone - which are usually trapped and made nonfunctional by these globulins.

A balance is necessary, however.

Excessive DIM may end up draining one's supply of Testosterone since the resulting freed Testosterone is converted to Estrogens by the aromatase enzyme. The fatter a person is, the more aromatase enzyme he or she has. Belly fat/Visceral Fat has a lot of aromatase enzyme.

Weakening Estrogen activity excessively may also reduce sex drive and muscle muscle mass. A balance between Estrogen and Testosterone activity is necessary for both sex and mass. Estrogen is necessary to develop muscle mass - it is an anabolic hormone. Estrogen is necessary for male sex drive (female too). Without Estrogen, even if a person has high testosterone/DHT levels, sex drives and the ability to maintain an erection plumets.

It is good to measure blood levels to determine Estrogen, Testosterone, Progesterone levels and their proportion to each other. DavidZ for one found a testosterone to estrogen ratio of 20:1 optimal for himself for wellness and functioning.

[pmgamer18]

There are some men that had high E2 and low T. So my Dr. treated the high E2 and there T levels came up 200 to 300 points. Some he treated with Arimidex and others with Indolplex/DIM. All of the men did good for 4 to 6 months. Yet my Dr. told me more then half ended up on TRT anyway there E2 was OK and Total E's but T went back down. Why he dose not know.

[Taoist]

Thanks guys for all of your responses! Really appreciated, valid point that without bloodwork I am blind so maybe this is somthing that I should consider.

Certainly recently I have noticed slight increases in abdominal fat and also again a slight increase of fat on my pecs around the nipples. My bodyfat is around 15% and I am fairly slim and overall fairly lean everywhere but not in the above areas. So I wonder whether that is estrogen related...

[marianco]

By reducing Estrogen activity using Arimidex (which blocks the aromatase enzyme which converts testosterone to estrogens) or DIM (which blocks certain enzymes, forcing Estrogen to be metabolized by other enzymes into less anabolic, lower breast cancer-risk, estrogens), you can increase your testosterone levels. The lower hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal feedback from estrogen also helps increase testicular testosterone production by increasing FSH/LH production from the pituitary.

A concern is that the higher testosterone levels will make this a wash since it will give feedback itself to the pituitary to reduce FSH/LH production.

Another concern is that the person taking Arimidex or DIM is already on a downward spiral in the capability of the Leydig cells in the testes to make testosterone in the first place. The testes are getting old and making testosterone is harder to do. Thus, despite Arimidex or DIM, endogenous testosterone production eventually runs its downward course.

Perhaps that is why the hypogonadal men ended up on testosterone replacement anyway.

[SWALE]

I don't really see any problem with supplementing I-3-C (preferable to DIM) in absence of analysis of the estrogens. This is because it just isn't going to lower total estrogens too far--in fact, there is some evidence taking I-3-C or DIM actually increases total estrogen levels. Rather, these OTC's function to improve the balance of the good 2-OHE to bad 16-a-OHE. And I also think it is prudent at this time to make sure to add in TMG (or DMG, if that is all you've got), if you are going to take them, as a couple of studies have produced the possibility of I-3-C/DIM also increasing the very harmful 4-OHE. If nothing else, providing additional methyl groups benefits us in other ways, too.

TBG levels are only a concern in the hypothyroid state. It is not like SHBG, where there is a hormone (estrogen) directly opposing its action. Further, since SHBG preferentialy binds androgen over estrogen (with a spread approaching 10%), the more SHBG you have, the more AND MORE estrogen you have floating around.

[Taoist]

Marianco, Swale,

Thanks also for your comments, as I said really appreciate the detailed replies. I must admit whilst I have been trying to get a better understanding of the varrious hormonal relationships I can see I have some way to go!!

From what I can see from this post and the others I have been searching through, there are a few different supplements that may or may not have some use. Appreciate anyones comments on the below, I have only really grasped what I believe to be their function:

1- Nettle Root - reduces levels of SHBG, therefore freeing up testosterone, but also read may reduce estrogen. Would this be of value or once again something that could have a negative effect also in a non TRT user. Also does the amount of Free testosterone as opposed to bound testosterone have have a different effect on the HTPA.ie signalling to reduce testosterone??

2- Zinc as an Aromatase inhibitor, is this essentially the same as Saw palmetto? I take zinc anyway as I feel it helps me.

3- I-3-C/ DIM - Marianco, from your comments would it make sense that something like DIM should by cycled?

Finally one more question, which is regarding Clomid and this is just something I was wondering about since reading on this forum, and I may need correcting on this
Clomid indirectly causes the HTPA to produce LH to increase T production. Testosterone levels increase but so does SHBG, so you end up with more testosterone but its bound. Would in theory Nettle root be an effective supplement to take in combination with Clomid to boost overall testosterone production due to its SHBG lowering effects?

I've probably made a few incorrect assumptions and mistakes in the above so sorry in advance, but if you dont ask you dont learn

[SPE]

Zinc does not act the same as Saw Palmetto. Saw helps reduce DHT(5-alpha reductase) in the prostate, whereas zinc reduces estrogen.

[1cc]

Originally Posted by SPE

Zinc does not act the same as Saw Palmetto. Saw helps reduce DHT(5-alpha reductase) in the prostate, whereas zinc reduces estrogen.

Zinc also reduces DHT.

[pmgamer18]

The bottom line here is if it is not broken don't try to fix it. Other then Zinc in a MV if I were you don't mess with it. Your body knows what is good for you and makes and keeps it that way. When it stops then your like us. But it is good to know about things like this. Try to learn what you can do so you don't get low T.