Men's Health Forum: This is a discussion on Injecting testosterone subcutaneously within the Anabolic Steroids forums, part of the extensive steroid information at MESO-Rx; A member on the Hypogonadism2 forum was kind enough to post the following info (which I hope he won't mind ...
A member on the Hypogonadism2 forum was kind enough to post the following info (which I hope he won't mind me posting here):
"I'm still doing T-cyp subQ, now at 120mg/week, plus 0.25mg Arimidex 2xweek. It's working very, very well for me.
Last year I switched to a new doc who prescribed T-cyp, and showed me how to inject subQ. I said I could do IM, he said subQ was fine and easier. He was the first TRT doc I had who seemed to know what he was doing.
I looked up prescribing info. for T-cypionate & T-enthanate, and all the instructions I found said to go intramuscular. I think most docs who read today's prescribing info. will say that. However, my doc's been practicing medicine for over 50 years, and my results are very good. That's all I need to know.
120mg of 200mg/mL formulation means I only inject 0.6cc at a time, so there's
very little "bump". I used to do 200mg/10days, the bump was bigger but no real problem. There's a little burning sensation, no big deal.
I've heard that subQ (which goes into the fatty layer) can cause more E2
conversion than IM. I'm on low-dose Arimidex to control E2 conversion. IMO switching to IM wouldn't eliminate the need for E2 management."
Could you elaborate? Have you actually done your weekly 150mg T-cyp injection subQ? How long have you done it for? Did you use your thigh or abdomen? When you say you feel better, do you mean that there is a better intensity of feeling good or do you seem to get a better (more even) profile of absorption or do you have less side-effects, or what?
Frank
Here is another recent posting from the Yahoo! Hypo forum (and I hope again they don't mind me posting here):
"My son just started testosterone treatment by injection with an experienced
and respected endocrinologist. I do the injections subQ in the arm or leg
with a tiny insulin type needle. There is virtually no pain. He says subQ
is just as effective as intramuscular although there are no studies to
confim that. He and his colleagues have found it to be true over years of
experience."
good posts frank, as you can tell, I find this topic very interesting
It seems as though all those who have tried subq have nothing bad to say about it. I am quite curious though, as to why SWALE is shying away from this topic. Perhaps it is because he has not tried it as yet and would not feel right discussing something he does not have substantial experience in. I respect that. I wonder if someone does get good benefits from subq injections (just as good or better than IM), is there any reason not to do them? I guess the main question here is the long term effects.
I think it's interesting, too, and I'm researching it, not because I find IM injections painful (which I don't), but rather because I want to determine what the best form of administration really is. There is the one individual who I quoted who said "also, subQ injections are often more painful or lead to inflammation. if you ever have accidentally gotten a steroid injection into the subq instead of the muscle you would understand," but I'm assuming he's confusing a failed IM injection with a properly done subQ injection (i.e., he probably injected into the very top layer of the muscle right at the IM/subQ interface, which I know can be painful from botched allergy shots I've done).
Since we know that testosterone is widely used in topical/transdermal applications, in which case the testosterone seemingly migrates down into the subcutaneous area, and since people don't have problems with that form of administration (except surface skin irritation due to reaction to any one of a number of components in the base gel or cream being used), then it seems we can be fairly assured that the testosterone component itself (albeit a testosterone ester) is not going to cause problems with, for example, subcutaneous fat atrophy as can happen with glucocorticosteroid (e.g., prednisone, cortisone, etc.) injections and creams. Therefore, the main issue, it seems to me, is whether the oil vehicle (i.e., the vegetable oils cottonseed and sesame seed) is likely to be a gulity culprit and cause a problem (over the long term) such as formation of subcutaneous granulomas (nodules) or fat atrophy, etc.
I see where subQ injection of non-vegetable oils such as mineral and silicone oils can cause these problems, but I can't find any examples of vegetable oils being a problem. I saw one experiment in which soybean oil was repeatedly injected/infused into animal tissue over many days in an attempt to mimic leakage from a breast implant, and there was only minimal irritation - as one might expect from such an invasive experiment.
Frank
What gauge and length needles do you use for this?
This Forum has a very good relationship with H2, as well as the Fina Group. We encourage all of our members to participate wherever they may receive benefit.
Frank, from a commercial standpoint, using your logic, from a commercial standpoint, wouldn't it make more sense for them to want to sell as much as possible?
But you are correct in that I am ocncerend about injecting oil into fat. And aromatase does live there.
Maybe they are onto something, I just don't know. But it just does not seem prudent to me at this itme. Maybe someday I will change my mind.
Could you elaborate? Have you actually done your weekly 150mg T-cyp injection subQ? How long have you done it for? Did you use your thigh or abdomen? When you say you feel better, do you mean that there is a better intensity of feeling good or do you seem to get a better (more even) profile of absorption or do you have less side-effects, or what?
Frank
Frank I have this mixed up I feel better getting the shot in the muscle in the rear then doing them in the leg. I tryed doing the shots in the fat and don't like how long it takes to feel it. Plus my E2 jumps on me doing this. I get the shot at my Dr.'s office in the muscle in the rear. They use 100mg/ml of Depo T. At home I have 200mgs./ml that I inject into the muscle in my leg. Maybe the difference in the power is why I feel better getting it at my Dr.'s getting the shot in the muscle in the rear.
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Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.
Phil
then the logic would be that SubQ would be the way to go. Aromitization happens as a function of time as to blood level according to a study or two I have. It would take a bit to find them, anyway... Why would not T be somewhat equivalent to HGH going on nothing but anecdotally devised evidence? Now that we have some efficient OTC AI's it matters little anyway; one just needs to get the slowest release as close to the 10mg level that one can on a daily basis. Finding an area of lower vascularity seems logical.
This is academic as far as I am concerned, as TRT needs by definition to be as close to human cycling as possible and still allow for the loss of receptor function with age. Transdermal is superior and readily uses bio identical hormones. But if u wanna use a needle, with all the problems, go for it, then Sub Q seems better to me. (Ever talk to any college football players about muscle cysts and abscesses?)
When one can easily keep TT at 1000 with FT at 3% and E2's at mid normal with transdermal, I am not looking for another MO. The body functions with constant levels in cycles at rather minute levels. If you are wanting a jolt, use a dopamine spiker: if you want positive well being and function, mimic nature.
Linear Mode
