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Men's Health Forum: This is a discussion on Injecting testosterone subcutaneously within the Anabolic Steroids forums, part of the extensive steroid information at MESO-Rx; Here is an interesting study on transdermal DHEA. From what I can tell, the dose used is something like 142 ...

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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2005, 09:44 AM
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Here is an interesting study on transdermal DHEA. From what I can tell, the dose used is something like 142 mg/day!

Physiological changes in dehydroepiandrosterone are not reflected by serum levels of active androgens and estrogens but of their metabolites: intracrinology.

Labrie F, Belanger A, Cusan L, Candas B.

Medical Research Council Group in Molecular Endocrinology, Centre Hospitalier de l'Universite Laval Research Center, Le Centre Hospitalier Universitaire de Quebec, Canada.

This study analyzes in detail the serum concentration of the active androgens and estrogens, as well as a series of free and conjugated forms of their precursors and metabolites, after daily application for 2 weeks of 10 mL 20% dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) solution on the skin to avoid first passage through the liver. In men, DHEA administration caused 175%, 90%, 200% and 120% increases in the circulating levels of DHEA and its sulfate (DHEA-S), DHEA-fatty acid esters, and androst-5-ene-3 beta,17 beta-diol, respectively, with a return to basal values 7 days after cessation of the 14-day treatment. Serum androstenedione increased by approximately 80%, whereas serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) remained unchanged. In parallel with the changes in serum DHEA, the concentrations of the conjugated metabolites of DHT, namely androsterone glucuronide, androstane-3 alpha,17 beta-diol-G, and androstane-3 beta,17 beta-diol-G increased by about 75%, 50%, and 75%, respectively, whereas androsterone-sulfate increased 115%. No consistent change was observed in serum estrone (E1) or estradiol (E2) in men receiving DHEA, whereas serum E1-sulfate and E2-sulfate were slightly and inconsistently increased by about 20%, and serum cortisol and aldosterone concentrations were unaffected by DHEA administration. Almost superimposable results were obtained in women for most steroids except testosterone, which was about 50% increased during DHEA treatment. This increase corresponded to about 0.8 nM testosterone, an effect undetectable in men because they already have much higher (approximately 15 nM) basal testosterone levels. In women, the serum levels of the conjugated metabolites of DHT, namely androsterone glucuronide, androstane-3 alpha,17 beta-diol-G, androstane-3 beta,17 beta-diol-G, and androsterone-sulfate were increased by 125%, 140%, 120% and 150%, respectively. The present study demonstrates that the serum concentrations of testosterone, DHT, E1, and E2 are poor indicators of total androgenic and estrogenic activity. However, the esterified metabolites of DHT appear as reliable markers of the total androgen pool, because they directly reflect the intracrine formation of androgens in the tissues possessing the steroidogenic enzymes required to transform the inactive precursors DHEA and DHEA-S into DHT. As well demonstrated in women, who synthesize almost all their androgens from DHEA and DHEA-S, supplementation with physiological amounts of exogeneous DHEA permits the biosynthesis of androgens limited to the appropriate target tissues without leakage of significant amounts of active androgens into the circulation. This local or intracrine biosynthesis and action of androgens eliminates the inappropriate exposure of other tissues to androgens and thus minimizes the risks of undesirable masculinizing or other androgen-related side effects of DHEA.

PMID: 9253308 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:38 AM
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...I'll be thinking about that one for a while. Great find!
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Old 10-16-2005, 06:00 PM
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I found it interesting that the implantable testosterone pellets are implanted Sub-Q.

Anyhow, I tried a sub-Q injection today using a 23G 1" needle. Like one of the previous posters, I noticed a mild burning sensation, nothing too awful.

It was a lot easier than self-injecting IM (I usually have someone else do that for me, but sometimes that just doesn't work out).
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Old 10-16-2005, 11:06 PM
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Yeah it's a lot easier because there are no nerve endings in the lower layers of the skin...only the outer. However, a 23G for sub-q? Is that all you had? I use 31G at 5/16" and it works fine with ZERO pain.
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Old 10-16-2005, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherlite
31G at 5/16" and it works fine with ZERO pain.
Holy shit,i wouldn't even feel that go in. I use a 28g 5/8"
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Old 10-17-2005, 10:22 AM
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it was either a 23g 1" , a 22g 1.5" or a 21g 1.5" or and 18g 1.5" (holy crap!). I didn't think that you could use something as small as 28g.

after reading this again, I tried a small amount using a 29g 1cc slin pin.

I had to heat up the oil to body temperature (just used warm water in a coffee cup and put the vial in there for a while).

After that, it took maybe a minute or two to draw up 0.5cc and about the same to inject it.

it was totally painless.

I am thinking of going this route. I like the ease of injection, and avoiding those annoying "knots" that i sometimes get in my ass for a few days at a time.

And I'm always concerned about the possibility of an abcess (despite sterile injection techniques - which don't seem to be any guarantee against such problems).

Apart from concern (but no proof) of higher e2 levels, are there any other problems with subQ (aside from injecting smaller amounts more frequently)?
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Old 10-17-2005, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherlite
Yeah it's a lot easier because there are no nerve endings in the lower layers of the skin...only the outer. However, a 23G for sub-q? Is that all you had? I use 31G at 5/16" and it works fine with ZERO pain.
But for hCG, yes? I can't imagine injecting Cyp with a 31G.
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Old 10-17-2005, 11:47 AM
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o yeah i'm only talking about HCG,HGH,PGF,IGF,CHG .. stuff like that. I wouldn't even try getting oil into a 31 or even a 27g. I don't even draw up oil in my 23g. I use an 18 and then switch the pins
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Old 10-17-2005, 03:43 PM
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Me either. I just can't see sub-Q with 23G! 27 yes.
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Old 10-19-2005, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RitchieC
it was either a 23g 1" , a 22g 1.5" or a 21g 1.5" or and 18g 1.5" (holy crap!). I didn't think that you could use something as small as 28g.

after reading this again, I tried a small amount using a 29g 1cc slin pin.

I had to heat up the oil to body temperature (just used warm water in a coffee cup and put the vial in there for a while).

After that, it took maybe a minute or two to draw up 0.5cc and about the same to inject it.

it was totally painless.

I am thinking of going this route. I like the ease of injection, and avoiding those annoying "knots" that i sometimes get in my ass for a few days at a time.

And I'm always concerned about the possibility of an abcess (despite sterile injection techniques - which don't seem to be any guarantee against such problems).

Apart from concern (but no proof) of higher e2 levels, are there any other problems with subQ (aside from injecting smaller amounts more frequently)?

Hi Ritchie,

How do you find the absorption of the subQ to be compared to IM? For me, the subQ seems a little slower to absorb but more steady/level overall. The avoidance of the "knot" issue that sometimes develops one or two days after an IM injection, and that can last for one or two days, is a benefit of subQ injection in my opinion, too. My only issue with the subQ so far is that, especially for the first day or two, the subQ "lump" that is present seems a little vulnerable to possible injury, e.g., if you've injected into your leg and then are struck there at the site of the injection for some reason (an errant baseball, or whatever), the oil "balloon" that is present (and which is gradually absorbed over several days) might behave similarly to a water balloon, i.e., it might "pop," and possibly create a (non-bacterial) abscess. If instead of 0.5mL (100mg T-cyp) once a week, a person did a smaller volume of 0.25mL twice a week then I don't think even that issue would be present.
Frank
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