Labs finally done! Please comment.

[Normandy]

A few of you know the troubles I've been having for years trying to get a doc to send for proper bloodwork instead of telling me i was "normal" with only 3 assays done (Total T, Free, and Prolactin). Now i finally found a GP who although admits he's no expert in andrology, at least agreed to send for the blood tests that i asked.
The results confirm that im HPTA supressed, but i would really like if u guys can comment on the overall state of affairs of my results, with particular attention to Free T and Total E's. (for example, to my laymen's eyes the Free T actually doesn't look so bad. Has my axis tried to compensate from low T by freeing up more available T?)

Here are the pertinent Labs: (unfortunately, i could not convice him to request DHT, SHBG, or Cortisol which i thought were instrumental. And instead i got a lot of less important stuff like CBC, metabolic panel, etc.)

Total T ....... 246 ng/dl ........ Range 241-827 ng/dl

Free T (Direct) ....... 13.4 pg/mL ........ Range 8.7 - 25.1 pg/mL

LH ......... 5.1 ....... Range 1.5 - 9.3

FSH .......... 1.5 ...... Range 1.4 - 18.1

Estradiol, Sensitive ......... 19 pg/ml ....... Range 3 - 70 pg/ml

Total Estrogens ...... 166 pg/mL ........ Range says: Adult Male 40 - 115

DHEA-S ........ 438 ug/dL ......... Range 120- 520

Progesterone ....... 0.9 ng/mL ....... Range 0.3 - 1.2 ng/mL

IGF-1 ....... 248 ng/mL ....... Range 117 - 329 ng/mL

Prolact ........ 9.1 ng/mL ....... Range 2.1 - 17.7 ng/mL

T4 ....... 5.1 ug/dl ....... Range 4.5 - 12.0

T3 uptake ....... 38 ........ Range 24 - 39

TSH ........ 4.41 uIU/mL ........ Range 0.35 - 5.50

LIpids were bad on all four counts

The stuff on the CBC and metabolic came out Normal.

Any and all input/advice is really appreciated.


-- Normandy

[1cc]

Originally Posted by Normandy

TSH ........ 4.41 uIU/mL ........ Range 0.35 - 5.50

It looks like you are hypothyroid. You need to have a Free T3 and Free T4 to get a complete picture of thyroid function. This may be causing your low Testosterone.

[Normandy]

Thanks 1cc, im going to ask for the Free T3 and Free T4 ASAP and get back to you on it. As for the thyroid perhaps causing my low testosterone, the thing is that my TSH was first tested back in 2004 and again in 2005 and both times came back 2.09 and 2.14 respectively. And i've had low t for a long time now, in the low 200's and sometimes high 200's.
In 2004 when my TSH was first drawn, my T was 281.

Could it be that low testosterone and high estrogens have caused my thyoid to respond less than optimally?

Would reversing the androgen problem likely solve any of hypothyroidic issues?

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by Normandy

Thanks 1cc, im going to ask for the Free T3 and Free T4 ASAP and get back to you on it. As for the thyroid perhaps causing my low testosterone, the thing is that my TSH was first tested back in 2004 and again in 2005 and both times came back 2.09 and 2.14 respectively. And i've had low t for a long time now, in the low 200's and sometimes high 200's.
In 2004 when my TSH was first drawn, my T was 281.

Could it be that low testosterone and high estrogens have caused my thyoid to respond less than optimally?

Would reversing the androgen problem likely solve any of hypothyroidic issues?

I say no low T can upset the cart but not this much, like 1cc said you need to address your Thyroid also check for Adrenal or low Cortisol. Your Estradiol is on the low side are you low in % of body fat. Your Total E's is high but this level is what I shoot for my Total E's were 400 - 500. If Cortisol is low this can mess up all kinds of things 1cc turned me on to this and now I find out I am not primary or secondary but have a low functioning pituitary gland.
Work on this first get it under control then retest. Here is a good site read it front to back.
www.stopthethyroidmadness.com

[1cc]

Originally Posted by Normandy

Thanks 1cc, im going to ask for the Free T3 and Free T4 ASAP and get back to you on it. As for the thyroid perhaps causing my low testosterone, the thing is that my TSH was first tested back in 2004 and again in 2005 and both times came back 2.09 and 2.14 respectively. And i've had low t for a long time now, in the low 200's and sometimes high 200's.
In 2004 when my TSH was first drawn, my T was 281.

Could it be that low testosterone and high estrogens have caused my thyoid to respond less than optimally?

Would reversing the androgen problem likely solve any of hypothyroidic issues?

The problem is that TSH is not a very good indicator of thyroid function. Even though your TSH was 2.09, your Free T3 and Free T4 might have told a different story. TSH does not reliably correlate with Free T4 and Free T3. That is why the only way to know for sure how the thyroid is doing is to test Free T4 and Free T3.

As to your question about the relationship of T to thyroid; optimal T levels will cause a person to require less thyroid hormone. I believe you are correct, that the high estrogens and low T could be aggravating this.

[Normandy]

Originally Posted by pmgamer18

Your Estradiol is on the low side are you low in % of body fat. Your Total E's is high but this level is what I shoot for my Total E's were 400 - 500. [/url]

What's the best way to determine % body fat. I can tell you that Im currently 219 lbs and only 5'7. When I was 18 and early twenties, (and in my prime) I weighed in at around 165. My body type right now is body fat mostly on the gut. My arms and legs and face seem lean (not to mention muscle wasted) so the assumption would be that I have high levels of aromatase enzymes. But like Phil said, my E2 seems low considering high adipose tissue. I did try half a bottle of 6-Oxo almost a year ago, back when I was tyring OTC meds. And during that timeframe, I also used I-3-C and tribulus. My symptoms became worse especially in regards to anxiety. So I stopped using all three.


Could it be that the 6-oxo and I-3-C eventually led to conversion of Estradiol to Estrone?

Would this still be manifested even after a year after stopping meds?


-- Normandy

[pmgamer18]

I can't say but you could try some TMG Dr. John says to use it with DIM or 13C. And some use it not doing DIM or 13C it helps the liver get wash out E's.
http://www.myvitanet.com/tmgtr75120ca.html

[1cc]

Originally Posted by Normandy

Could it be that the 6-oxo and I-3-C eventually led to conversion of Estradiol to Estrone?

Would this still be manifested even after a year after stopping meds?

6-oxo is a suicide inhibitor of estrogen. whcih means it makes permanent changes. It is possible that your E2 was higher prior to using 6-oxo. One should never use anything like 6-oxo which makes irreversible changes. You need to get complete labs including DHT in order to get a complete picture. It's very difficult to do this when the doctor you're dealing with is unfamiliar with the subject and unwilling to run the necessary initial labs and followup labs. Consider having Dr John Crisler www.allthingsmale.com consult with your doctor in your treatment. At least you will be able to get the required initial and followup labs done. I don't believe you will need more than 3-4 consults to get you sorted out.

[Normandy]

Just got myself a bottle of TMG and DIM complex. Each tab of the DIM only has 25% bioavailable DIM. Should I do 300mg DIM and 700mg TMG?

I'll keep pestering the doc about DHT, cortisol and SHGB.

Can you guys comment on my Free Testosterone. My doc said that although total T was on the low normal side, that my free testosterone was pretty good and that's what I should focus on anyways. Do you guys feels that 13.4 pg/mL of free T should be enough not to be implicated in my hypogonadic symptoms? I should reiterate that my testes have been shrunken for 4 years now, so there's clear testicular atrophy. I just can't see how those little grapes are producing a decent amount of T.


-- Normandy

[Normandy]

Originally Posted by pmgamer18

If Cortisol is low this can mess up all kinds of things 1cc turned me on to this and now I find out I am not primary or secondary but have a low functioning pituitary gland.
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Phil, I know it took you decades to fine tune your HRT, but now with this revelation of being hypopituitary, do you think u might respond to SERMs or GnrH's to stimulate your pituitary and perhaps begin production of adequate amounts of endogenous T? Or do u think ur pituitary has almost completely atrophied when it comes to gonadotropins?


-- Normandy