Men's Health Forum: This is a discussion on Letrozole 4 Gyno--management? within the Anabolic Steroids forums, part of the extensive steroid information at MESO-Rx; hi all,
newbie here. tried reading through the forums for an answer but didn't get all the info i need.
...
newbie here. tried reading through the forums for an answer but didn't get all the info i need.
i'm an HIV+ guy on many meds, including 2+ years of TRT (200mg T cypionate/week) and almost 2 years of nandrolone (200mg/week). in April 08 i added Nexium 40mg, which i stopped a month ago after finding a lump in my right pectoral. via mammogram/sonogram/xray/MRI i was diagnosed with "focal gynecomastia".
for the past 2 weeks i've been taking 2.5 mg of Femara (Letrozole) once a day, and already i notice the lump shrinking. based on what i've read in the 'Profiles" sections here and on other sites, Femara was the best choice to ask my doc for.
what side-effects should i be especially wary of? 2 weeks in, i definitely notice a big reduction in my libido, and my joints either feel strained or cramp up earlier when in any odd posture...so i'm much more careful during weight training. However, i'm concerned about other effects, especially after checking these links i found in this forum:
my sleep has always been choppy, so i'm not sure if i'd notice changes in my GH-release without blood work...in fact, i have so many med side-effects (i chase pills with other pills) that i want to minimize any hypochondriac-style hyper-vigilance.
incidentally, my total Testosterone on TRT has measured between 700-1600, depending on what day of the week/time of day i'm tested (i inject every Tuesday) and i had Estradiol measured in June 08 at 50, in September 08 at 56, and 2 weeks ago i had another baseline taken...this time it was " <20 " ?! that last measurement was taken b4 i'd taken a single dose of Femara n I haven't taken any other Estradiol-reducing compounds that i'm aware of. could that reading be a fluke?? This morning i had blood drawn for another estradiol test, and i expect that result to be undetectable.
I have 2 refills left on the Femara. can i just take the full dose until the gyno is gone, or should i begin tapering down the dosage, as suggested here and elsewhere? if so, do i need to get a chemist's scale and start powdering the tablets to get those ever smaller fractions?
Does anyone have any comments or suggestions? My doc has previously mentioned the need for the 20-30/1 T/E ratio and that E-suppresion is very unhealthy long-term, but besides the side-effects i've noticed so far, what else should i be on the lookout for? My argument to my doc was that i only wanted Femara until the gyno was gone, n then i'd be happy to switch to lo-dose Arimidex for long-term use...like 1/4 tab 3 times a week. However, that last Estradiol test left me confused as to whether even that is a good idea.
well thanks to everyone who responded, i figure i should give an update...
i have another 9 days of Femara therapy left. and the lump is mostly gone...it was a nickel-sized ball with some tendril-like extensions, now it's just those tendrils and they feel much smaller...the lump itself is gone totally.
after the Femara's done i'm gonna start on 1/4 Arimidex tab every M/W/F, and after 2-4 weeks of that i'll take another E2 measurement.
i found that my strength went down quite a bit within a week of being on the Femara, and my joints would ache much more easily...especially in exertion. bicycle riding, sex, lifting weights...all these activites found my joints aching alot earlier.
i'm glad i read the Letrozole profile here fully before starting on it, because otherwise i would have probably injured myself worse than the author of that profile. at this point, i'm stronger than ever and have put on a good 6-7 pounds of muscle from when i started. my extra care in the gym has resulted in my gym numbers (weight/reps) going higher than ever.
i'm just curious if my initial weight loss on Femara was due to water loss via suppressed E2, since i dropped like 5 pounds in that week. i'm now heavier then when i started...i'm curious if i'll jump up in water-weight when my E2 goes up a bit.
Letro shuts down 98% of estrogen formation, Arimidex 80%. Adex better long term cause too little estrogen is very bad for cholesterol profiles, joints, etc. I am not sure of the reprecussions of taking either with your specifics and how they may react. They are both anti-cancer drugs for estrogen fueled cancers. The letro will know E2 through the floor. As far a libido, too much OR TOO LITTLE estrogen will cause erection difficulty. TRT guys shoot for .5 mgs arimidex every other day to get good balance. Read the physicians prescribing info at manufacturer's web site.
Letro shuts down 98% of estrogen formation, Arimidex 80%. Adex better long term cause too little estrogen is very bad for cholesterol profiles, joints, etc. I am not sure of the reprecussions of taking either with your specifics and how they may react. They are both anti-cancer drugs for estrogen fueled cancers. The letro will know E2 through the floor. As far a libido, too much OR TOO LITTLE estrogen will cause erection difficulty. TRT guys shoot for .5 mgs arimidex every other day to get good balance. Read the physicians prescribing info at manufacturer's web site.
i've read both package inserts and i know about the difference in effect, and in my case the main modifers are: i take Norvir 100mg BID (strong cyp450 3a4 inhibitor), and in inject 200mg t cypionate and nandrolone every week. i've just read that nandrolone can also fit into the E2 receptor, and i suspect that may have slightly lessened the effects of the letrozole. specifically, my interest in sex itself dropped (now my bf initiates mostly, b4 it was me doing that) but my actual erectile function is as good as ever.
early on, i think reading about the side effects had a negative placebo effect, in that i found myself more distractable during sex and and could lose wood that way....but at this point i'm over that hangup and my performance is fine. my interest is still lower, however.
again, i dont know if the negative effect would be more intense if i wasn't injecting nandrolone regularly.
The Nandrolone will not effect the psychological horns. I dont know what Norvir is. The Nandrolone is super for your cause. That stuff is awsome. Nandrolone has almost no aromatization to Estrogen and I am not sure about how it in itself could interact with E receptors?? Either way the goal is to park something other than estrogen there so the E2 cant get in there. Hear me on this. You need to read the physicians presribing info, not the one for us. This is where you will learn about the metabolism half-lives and the real pertinant info. The info for patients in nothing but watered down bullshit with a heavy steaming pile of "keep you as ignorant about our drug as possible" piled on top. Not only do you not get any information from the area you are reading, it is just partials and confusion to give you the least info they can. Check out the Physicians prescibing info on the Letro and you will see the real story. Pretty soon you are going to have to switch to Adex as the letro will be harder to control for TRT purposes. If the doc has you on the letro to try to get rid of the gyno non-surgically then that is the one to stay on until gone. Regarding the loss of sexual desire, and I am not beiing an asshole. You have to consider there has to be some SERIOUS psychological issues with the fact that you are HIV+. I am such a worrier that I dont think I could even get it up knowing that I could potentially pass that disease on to my partner. You have to give this some consideration and bring it to the front probably with a shrink and counselor. I am sure you have already addressed this issue, but I have my money on that being a large part of the problem. Time could heal that will repeated protected sex and gaining the confidence that it can be done with little risk with proper protection and technique. You know you dont have to fuck every day. At least I keep telling myself that. I would bet if you slowed down to once a week for a while, you will be waiting with bells on every saturday night.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeton
i've read both package inserts and i know about the difference in effect, and in my case the main modifers are: i take Norvir 100mg BID (strong cyp450 3a4 inhibitor), and in inject 200mg t cypionate and nandrolone every week. i've just read that nandrolone can also fit into the E2 receptor, and i suspect that may have slightly lessened the effects of the letrozole. specifically, my interest in sex itself dropped (now my bf initiates mostly, b4 it was me doing that) but my actual erectile function is as good as ever.
early on, i think reading about the side effects had a negative placebo effect, in that i found myself more distractable during sex and and could lose wood that way....but at this point i'm over that hangup and my performance is fine. my interest is still lower, however.
again, i dont know if the negative effect would be more intense if i wasn't injecting nandrolone regularly.
The Nandrolone will not effect the psychological horns. I dont know what Norvir is. The Nandrolone is super for your cause. That stuff is awsome. Nandrolone has almost no aromatization to Estrogen and I am not sure about how it in itself could interact with E receptors?? Either way the goal is to park something other than estrogen there so the E2 cant get in there. Hear me on this. You need to read the physicians presribing info, not the one for us. This is where you will learn about the metabolism half-lives and the real pertinant info. The info for patients in nothing but watered down bullshit with a heavy steaming pile of "keep you as ignorant about our drug as possible" piled on top. Not only do you not get any information from the area you are reading, it is just partials and confusion to give you the least info they can. Check out the Physicians prescibing info on the Letro and you will see the real story. Pretty soon you are going to have to switch to Adex as the letro will be harder to control for TRT purposes. If the doc has you on the letro to try to get rid of the gyno non-surgically then that is the one to stay on until gone. Regarding the loss of sexual desire, and I am not beiing an asshole. You have to consider there has to be some SERIOUS psychological issues with the fact that you are HIV+. I am such a worrier that I dont think I could even get it up knowing that I could potentially pass that disease on to my partner. You have to give this some consideration and bring it to the front probably with a shrink and counselor. I am sure you have already addressed this issue, but I have my money on that being a large part of the problem. Time could heal that will repeated protected sex and gaining the confidence that it can be done with little risk with proper protection and technique. You know you dont have to fuck every day. At least I keep telling myself that. I would bet if you slowed down to once a week for a while, you will be waiting with bells on every saturday night.
ok, there's alot here, so let me go in order as much as possible:
this is the link that told me nandrolone fits in the E2 receptor: Study: testosterone works better than deca
as for nandrolone affecting "the psychological horns", everything i see says different, that essentially one MUST take it with testosterone or it will essentially shut down ur gonads and
sex drive and give u gyno.i started weekly injecting of 200mg t cypionate in 11/06 and then i added 200mg nandrolone in 4/07, in the 6 months in between i was VERY horny...adding the nandrolone actually toned down my libido to where i was pre-meds/pre-hiv.
Norvir is a obsolete protease inhibitor that these days is used as a "booster"...because it inhibits a liver enzyme called cytochrome p450 3a4, anything that enzyme would normally clear out of the body instead gets increased. with that liver enzyme so suppressed and many other such enzymes taxed in my system from other meds, it seems safer for me to transition to thrice weekly doses of 1/4 Arimidex tab and test E2 levels after a month or so...i get higher blood levels of many drugs than most people do.
i already go for prescribing info over 'patient info" whenever possible, what specifially made u suspect otherwise?
i dont think ur being an asshole, and i wouldn't hesitate to tell u otherwise.
I'm HIV+ for almost 6 years now, i've acclimated pretty well to my situation...and my health AND my infectiousness now are a far cry from what they were then. not to mention that my boo is also poz...between our consistently undetectable viral loads and strictest adherence to meds, neither he nor I sweat a transmission risk.
before u ask, yes i've always told all partners that i'm poz, and yes sex partners have lied about their status in every possible configuration,,,poz claiming to be neg, neg claiming to be poz, either claiming "dont know", and more...
now, to be sure, i dont have to fuck every day...but before letrozole, i usually did. i expect that situation to return somewhat after a few weeks of controlled E2-rebound.
the reason i went into these side issues was actually to consider that perhaps nandrolone's potential E2 mimicry might have spared me the worst libido-suppressing effects of letrozole?
"Psychological" as I am aware of the physical. Butyou stated no probs with erection. However, that is a solid dose of Deca and you may want to take the test up to 300??? The reason I though you were not looking at the physicians info is because you mentioned you read a pamplet that came with the meds (or I thought you said something to that effect). This is not the same. Maybe I misunderstood. I am going to look at the article I think you attached about the Deca as should be interesting. And Yes I would like to fuck everyday too, but I married a woman. Oh well.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeton
ok, there's alot here, so let me go in order as much as possible:
this is the link that told me nandrolone fits in the E2 receptor: Study: testosterone works better than deca
as for nandrolone affecting "the psychological horns", everything i see says different, that essentially one MUST take it with testosterone or it will essentially shut down ur gonads and
sex drive and give u gyno.i started weekly injecting of 200mg t cypionate in 11/06 and then i added 200mg nandrolone in 4/07, in the 6 months in between i was VERY horny...adding the nandrolone actually toned down my libido to where i was pre-meds/pre-hiv.
Norvir is a obsolete protease inhibitor that these days is used as a "booster"...because it inhibits a liver enzyme called cytochrome p450 3a4, anything that enzyme would normally clear out of the body instead gets increased. with that liver enzyme so suppressed and many other such enzymes taxed in my system from other meds, it seems safer for me to transition to thrice weekly doses of 1/4 Arimidex tab and test E2 levels after a month or so...i get higher blood levels of many drugs than most people do.
i already go for prescribing info over 'patient info" whenever possible, what specifially made u suspect otherwise?
i dont think ur being an asshole, and i wouldn't hesitate to tell u otherwise.
I'm HIV+ for almost 6 years now, i've acclimated pretty well to my situation...and my health AND my infectiousness now are a far cry from what they were then. not to mention that my boo is also poz...between our consistently undetectable viral loads and strictest adherence to meds, neither he nor I sweat a transmission risk.
before u ask, yes i've always told all partners that i'm poz, and yes sex partners have lied about their status in every possible configuration,,,poz claiming to be neg, neg claiming to be poz, either claiming "dont know", and more...
now, to be sure, i dont have to fuck every day...but before letrozole, i usually did. i expect that situation to return somewhat after a few weeks of controlled E2-rebound.
the reason i went into these side issues was actually to consider that perhaps nandrolone's potential E2 mimicry might have spared me the worst libido-suppressing effects of letrozole?
"Psychological" as I am aware of the physical. Butyou stated no probs with erection. However, that is a solid dose of Deca and you may want to take the test up to 300??? The reason I though you were not looking at the physicians info is because you mentioned you read a pamplet that came with the meds (or I thought you said something to that effect). This is not the same. Maybe I misunderstood. I am going to look at the article I think you attached about the Deca as should be interesting. And Yes I would like to fuck everyday too, but I married a woman. Oh well.....
u may have a point about the test/deca ratio...once in awhile i end up with a 300mg Test/200mg Deca dosage (because i can re-up the T rx more easily) and during those weeks, i feel alot more energy and libido.
also, in terms of female sexual response, all hope is not lost. u just gotta decode your wife's signals...with women, getting their minds and bodies in sync regarding sexual desire is tricky.
here's a long but amazing article that was the coverstory in the New York Times Sunday Magazine from 1/25/09:
this article pretty much lays out the cutting edge research on human female sexual response...let me know if u can access it, if not, i'll cut/paste the whole damn thing in here...
and in a seperate thread so that people can find it on it's own...
Letrozole 4 Gyno--management? 
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