libido problem pt.2

[marker]

About 3 weeks ago I wrote a thread 'help with libido problem' In summation, I am 36,in generally good health, and have had an abnormally lo libido for >1yr.

blood test results.

[january-04-06 9:08]

total test.- 765ng/dL ref-[241-827]
free test.- 17.7pg/mL [8.7-25.1]
DHT - 44ng/dL [30-85]
DHEAs - 681ng/dL [146-850]
estrogen, - 250pg/mL [40-115]
total

[june-12-06 8:43] Includes complete metabolic panel-w. all normal

total test.- 714ng/dL [241-827]
TSH - 2.29mIU/L [0.4-5.5]
prolactin - 6.3ng/mL [2.0-18]
FSH - 8.5mIU/mL [1.6-8.0]
LH - 9.2mIU/mL [1.5-9.3]
estardiol - <32pg/mL [0-54]
estrogens,-116pg/mL [<130]

At this point the endocrinologist discusses TRT.I ask for retest with these results.

[june- 28-06 7:16]

total test.- 529ng/dL [241-827]
LH- - 10.8mIU/mL [1.5-9.3]
FSH- - 8.8mIU/mL [1.6-8.0]
estrogens,-142pg/mL [<130]
total

[july- 03-06 9:53]

total test.-616ng/dL [241-827]
LH- -8.4mIU/mL [1.5-9.3]
FSH -10.0mIU/mL [1.6-8.0]
estrogens,-131pg/mL [<130]
total

A 4-test sumation of test./estrogen and LH/FSH is
total test.- 765,714,529,616 AVG-656
total est. - 250,116,142,131 AVG-160
LH -9.2,10.8,8.4 AVG-9.4 [1.5-9.3]
FSH -8.5,8.8,10.0 AVG-9.1 [1.6-8.0]

The doctor agrees elevated estrogen is the problem,but can offer nothing but TRT.I ask about aromatase inhibitors, he knows absolutely nothing about them.He says TRT will up libido, and decrease sperm.If I decide to have kids, he says I can come of it and sperm will go up, and natural test. production will resume.[i.e- no long term effects]

We left it at I would think about it, and if I decide to try TRT I can come back.I ask what type of dr. would know about A.Is and he says he doesnt know, but it would not be an endocrinologist.

Correct me if Im wrong but I dont see real reason to take TRT, if it has no effect on the potential core problem-estrogen.Is he correct about no long term effect on natural test. production?

Marianco had previously suggested a more thourogh test- freeT3,free T4, progesterone,cortisol,DHEAs.I havent had that done due to cost w.out prescription.I could see if this dr. will write a prescription for that,but I want to find a dr. more specialised.

What is the best way to find a dr. familiar w. AIs.I see no sense in wasting time w. another general endocrinologist.

Oddly enough, I remember the morning I tested 714test/116est my libido was unusually hi,which points again toward estrogen being the primary cause.
I usually have a few days a month where i have semi-elevated libido, but for the other 90%+ of the time it is abnormally low.Even less than2 years ago I would have thought this low of libido was virtually impossible.

I would appreciate any input,comments, or suggestions on this matter.Also, what would you make of the elevated LH/FSH and could that be contributing to the problem? The 1 time I tested DHT it was also on the low side,but in range.The only other health problems I could think of are dry,chapped lips and minor insomnia[more like interupted sleep than insomnia].I can sleep but usually awake every 2-4 hrs.,but can fall back asleep.

[pmgamer18]

I would not do a Al if I were you I would not do TRT your levels are good on T. Your total E's and Estradiol could come down. You can try a OTC supplement called Indolplex/DIM start with one half a tablet. When your libido comes back up and or you get morning wood back if you don't have it now you will know it worked and your levels came down. Now after this keep doing the DIM but is this goes away it could mean your to low. So if this happens stop the DIM until it comes back. Then go back on the DIM but do less of it.
http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html
Also take some Zinc/Copper once a day. This helps with E's and we all need it we don't get much Zinc in are diet with the corn fed meat we eat.
http://www.myvitanet.com/zincop100cnt.html
When things get better do a blood check to see where you are. Be careful you don't go to low your not on t meds and this will not come back up very fast so don't do like a lot of other guys I tell this to and take more then I told you. Being in a big hurry will make you to low to fast and you will miss the libido and wood coming back.

Originally Posted by marker

About 3 weeks ago I wrote a thread 'help with libido problem' In summation, I am 36,in generally good health, and have had an abnormally lo libido for >1yr.

blood test results.

[january-04-06 9:08]

total test.- 765ng/dL ref-[241-827]
free test.- 17.7pg/mL [8.7-25.1]
DHT - 44ng/dL [30-85]
DHEAs - 681ng/dL [146-850]
estrogen, - 250pg/mL [40-115]
total

[june-12-06 8:43] Includes complete metabolic panel-w. all normal

total test.- 714ng/dL [241-827]
TSH - 2.29mIU/L [0.4-5.5]
prolactin - 6.3ng/mL [2.0-18]
FSH - 8.5mIU/mL [1.6-8.0]
LH - 9.2mIU/mL [1.5-9.3]
estardiol - <32pg/mL [0-54]
estrogens,-116pg/mL [<130]

At this point the endocrinologist discusses TRT.I ask for retest with these results.

[june- 28-06 7:16]

total test.- 529ng/dL [241-827]
LH- - 10.8mIU/mL [1.5-9.3]
FSH- - 8.8mIU/mL [1.6-8.0]
estrogens,-142pg/mL [<130]
total

[july- 03-06 9:53]

total test.-616ng/dL [241-827]
LH- -8.4mIU/mL [1.5-9.3]
FSH -10.0mIU/mL [1.6-8.0]
estrogens,-131pg/mL [<130]
total

A 4-test sumation of test./estrogen and LH/FSH is
total test.- 765,714,529,616 AVG-656
total est. - 250,116,142,131 AVG-160
LH -9.2,10.8,8.4 AVG-9.4 [1.5-9.3]
FSH -8.5,8.8,10.0 AVG-9.1 [1.6-8.0]

The doctor agrees elevated estrogen is the problem,but can offer nothing but TRT.I ask about aromatase inhibitors, he knows absolutely nothing about them.He says TRT will up libido, and decrease sperm.If I decide to have kids, he says I can come of it and sperm will go up, and natural test. production will resume.[i.e- no long term effects]

We left it at I would think about it, and if I decide to try TRT I can come back.I ask what type of dr. would know about A.Is and he says he doesnt know, but it would not be an endocrinologist.

Correct me if Im wrong but I dont see real reason to take TRT, if it has no effect on the potential core problem-estrogen.Is he correct about no long term effect on natural test. production?

Marianco had previously suggested a more thourogh test- freeT3,free T4, progesterone,cortisol,DHEAs.I havent had that done due to cost w.out prescription.I could see if this dr. will write a prescription for that,but I want to find a dr. more specialised.

What is the best way to find a dr. familiar w. AIs.I see no sense in wasting time w. another general endocrinologist.

Oddly enough, I remember the morning I tested 714test/116est my libido was unusually hi,which points again toward estrogen being the primary cause.
I usually have a few days a month where i have semi-elevated libido, but for the other 90%+ of the time it is abnormally low.Even less than2 years ago I would have thought this low of libido was virtually impossible.

I would appreciate any input,comments, or suggestions on this matter.Also, what would you make of the elevated LH/FSH and could that be contributing to the problem? The 1 time I tested DHT it was also on the low side,but in range.The only other health problems I could think of are dry,chapped lips and minor insomnia[more like interupted sleep than insomnia].I can sleep but usually awake every 2-4 hrs.,but can fall back asleep.

[Random987]

Have him consult with Dr. Crisler at allthingsmale.com, if not, then see another endo. Going on traditional TRT may not help, and may exacerbate the problem. More test will likely lead to more estrogen.

Libido is a funny animal. Almost everything is related to the male libido. It may not even be a 'hormonal' issue.

[1cc]

Marker,

You are definitely not a candidate for TRT. It is possible that Estrogen may be the problem. Do you have any other symptoms besides low libido, like fatigue, memory problems, sugar cravings, low blood pressure, low blood sugar. Low thyroid can also cause low libido, so it would be prudent to check that first, TSH , Free T3 and Free T4.

There are things you can do to lower Estrogen without using an AI. Are you overweight?

[theiceman13]

Originally Posted by 1cc

Marker,

You are definitely not a candidate for TRT. It is possible that Estrogen may be the problem. Do you have any other symptoms besides low libido, like fatigue, memory problems, sugar cravings, low blood pressure, low blood sugar. Low thyroid can also cause low libido, so it would be prudent to check that first, TSH , Free T3 and Free T4.

There are things you can do to lower Estrogen without using an AI. Are you overweight?

Can you please list things one can do to lower estrogen? I heard losing weight helps, do you know of others?

[1cc]

Originally Posted by theiceman13

Can you please list things one can do to lower estrogen? I heard losing weight helps, do you know of others?

Zinc, transdermal chrysin.

[eeso]

You can get the same indolplex product here for $5 cheaper. It's actually the same company that makes it, it's just branded differently.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/et/pure.html

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by eeso

You can get the same indolplex product here for $5 cheaper. It's actually the same company that makes it, it's just branded differently.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/et/pure.html

Yes this looks like the same thing as Indolplex/DIM and says Tablets so they can be cut.

[Naturdoc]

I agree you do not need TRT. The problem more likely is high test causing increased estrogen through aromatization. The suggestions have been good. Aromatase inhibitors like Arimidex would be most effective but is expensive. Zinc and DIM are also good as they make estrogen metabolites that are less active. I don't know that transdermal Chrysin works as it was only well tested in test tube research. If someone has personal experience I would be glad to hear it. I would also include Nettle root as it binds Sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), freeing up more testosterone and free estrogen to decrease feedback on pituitary to stimulate more estrogen. Some people have also mentioned Vitamin A for hormone production and potassium to optimize parasympathetic response (erection, not ejaculation). Libido can be reduced by too much sympathetic stimulation. Are you under a lot of stress?
What did you do from Jan to June to lower estrogen?

[hackskii]

Cruciferous vegetables (Indoles) like Arugula, Broccoli, Cauliflower, Brussel Sprouts, Cabbage, Watercress.

Beef liver tablets are said to be a natural aromatase inhibitor, plus have un-named growth factors, high in B-Vitamins including B-12.

Zinc

nicotine

DHT

Weight loss (belly fat).

Alcohol can raise estrogen and so can weed.
Stress can raise it too.

[1cc]

Originally Posted by hackskii

DHT

Yes, I forgot about DHT.

[marker]

thanks for the replies

'what did you do from jan to june to lower estrogen'

Oddly enough,even with the reduced readings , there is no difference in libido. Perhaps levels are still high enough to kill libido.But since Jan Ive tried 2 cycles of 6oxo[2-6 week cycles @ 6 wks. each], bioresponse DIM[300-450 mg.]and pycnogenol.

I currently take calcium d-glutarate ,zinc[50mg.] and[not directly related to est.] fishoil/borage oil,vitamins c,e,and a b-complex, and arginine alpha ketoglutarate.And I try to add lecitin and ground flax seed to daily diet.As well as try to add cruciferous foods to daily diet.

'are you under alot of stress'-No more than average.Ive had far more stressful periods in the past, and dont feel overstressed.

'are you overweight'-Although I am not lean,I appear slender and athletic.I have some genetic fat storage areas that Ive never been able to loose,but have had those as long as I can remember. My stregnth/fitness levels have not decreased.

'do you have any other symptoms beside low libido'- The only other health issues I can think of are dry,chapped lips and minor insomnia.

thanks for the input,and if there is anything else please post.

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by marker

thanks for the replies

'what did you do from jan to june to lower estrogen'

Oddly enough,even with the reduced readings , there is no difference in libido. Perhaps levels are still high enough to kill libido.But since Jan Ive tried 2 cycles of 6oxo[2-6 week cycles @ 6 wks. each], bioresponse DIM[300-450 mg.]and pycnogenol.

I currently take calcium d-glutarate ,zinc[50mg.] and[not directly related to est.] fishoil/borage oil,vitamins c,e,and a b-complex, and arginine alpha ketoglutarate.And I try to add lecitin and ground flax seed to daily diet.As well as try to add cruciferous foods to daily diet.

'are you under alot of stress'-No more than average.Ive had far more stressful periods in the past, and dont feel overstressed.

'are you overweight'-Although I am not lean,I appear slender and athletic.I have some genetic fat storage areas that Ive never been able to loose,but have had those as long as I can remember. My stregnth/fitness levels have not decreased.

'do you have any other symptoms beside low libido'- The only other health issues I can think of are dry,chapped lips and minor insomnia.

thanks for the input,and if there is anything else please post.

Well if you did all that and your not on TRT you could have gone down so fast you missed the high libiso and morning wood. This happens to guys a lot they think taking this stuff like the bottle says that and more that they will get better faster but what happens is they go down so fast they miss the zone. And not being on TRT and doing 6oxo it's going to take some time to get your levels back up being to low kills libido and gives one ED.

[marker]

pmgamer18;

When you say levels may have dropped too low,too fast my total est. levels ,although reduced are still quite high.Readings went from abnormally high to high-250,116,142,131. My levels are still far from low.Although I think I should have noticed atleast some marginal improvement in libido from the decrease, I have not.Im uncertain why I would need to wait for my levels to come back up?Could those levels still be high enough to kill libido?

[1cc]

Originally Posted by marker

thanks for the input,and if there is anything else please post.

It sounds like Estrogen is your problem.

Some other factors that can cause higher Estrogen:
1. Do you drink alcohol a lot?
2. Do you eat a lot of Grapefruit?
3. Drugs that increase Estrogen levels:
Pain/Anti-inflammatory drugs
Antibiotics
Antifungal drugs
Cholesterol lowering drugs
Antidepressants
Antipsychotic drugs
Heart and Blood pressure medicine
Calcium Channel Blockers : aniacids, Omeprazole, Cimetidine
High-dose Vitamin E
Amphetamines, marijuana, Cocaine

These are from "The Testosterone Syndrome" - Eugene Shippen M.D.

If none of the above applies to you, you can try Zinc 50mg per day before bed and see if that helps.