Men's Health Forum: This is a discussion on A look at the Progesterone precursor cascade. within the Anabolic Steroids forums, part of the extensive steroid information at MESO-Rx; I have been trying to understand why there is a conflict of opinion regarding progesterone for men. It seems that ...
I have been trying to understand why there is a conflict of opinion regarding progesterone for men. It seems that all over the Internet, there is talk about how Progesterone is good for men fighting excess Estrogen. According to many articles, Progesterone “balances the estrogens that build in a man's body.” Progesterone for Men It is said to be an antagonist against “the effect of estrogen and chemical estrogens. It is like a tug of war. Estrogen pulls on one side and Natural Progesterone pulls on the other side. John Lee, MD claims that the hormones must be balanced.” Why Natural Progesterone Works
My problem with the above quotes is that they seem vague - confusing and quite possibly misleading. Or maybe they aren’t… that’s why I’ve started this thread.
From everything I’ve read on this forum, typically from pm, nails, Plymouth and cc, it’s that that Progesterone has feminizing characteristics which make it unreliable. That it could enhance an already elevated Estrogen problem in men. I assume it’s like other unpredicatable (precursor) agents such as DHEA, where because of the amount of hormones it can convert to, (and your picture as it stands) you’re working with a mixed bag.
The fog seems to roll in at this point…. I have noticed that most of the pro-Progesterone buzz around the Internet keep using the terminology “low Testosterone” and “low Progesterone” combined with “excess Estrogens” as the perfect scenario for Progesterone working. In this “perfect picture,” it seems like they are assuming that taking progesterone will channel to increase Progesterone (obviously), Testosterone, and work to lower Estrogen. But what exactly is considered “low Testosterone” – is that low TOTAL or low FREE/BIOAVAILABLE? It makes a BIG difference does it not?
For example my situation – I have high Total T, very low Free/Bioavailable T, high E2, impaired cortisol /DHEA output, low normal Progesterone, Hypothyroid. Using progesterone as a precursor here, where is the stuff going to go? I’ve broken it down into possibilites:
1. If Progesterone converts to Estrogen through the process of aromatization than history has shown that taking Progesterone will cause even more aromatization in my case. I have taken HCG in the past and it went straight to more estrogen no bones about it. I bloated bad.
2. Progesterone is said to be a precursor to the adrenals as well. It could channel to cortisol and DHEA in my case – both of which are low. I can see this happening. More DHEA could lead to aromatization on this channel as well. I have an over normal total T.
Outcome 3 is the magic result because it assumes that like the above VAGUE quotes, “Estrogen pulls on one side and Natural Progesterone pulls on the other side.” That there needs to be a balance. My questions are – what the heck does that mean? Does Progesterone aromatize or not? My question is – if someone is full in both tanks – ie. Estrogen and Testosterone are full, what is the benefit of Progesterone? Heck what would be the benefit of Pregnenolone if both of these are full and you are looking to correct excess E? Ultimately they both will cascade in similar fashions depending on what your hormones look like. And if both are high, what is the stuff going to do? Some of the articles on the Internet are telling me that instead of excess Estrogen, Progesterone will find a way to lower it... but it seems odd that it (like HCG for example) wouldn't just aromatize.
Does it have some special "balancing" powers against aromatization?
pregnenolone to increase pregnenolone and dhea. dhea to increase dhea. arimidex to decrease estrogen aromatization DIM/I3C to lower E2. Hold on the progesterone. Keep measuring it.
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I have been trying to understand why there is a conflict of opinion regarding progesterone for men. It seems that all over the Internet, there is talk about how Progesterone is good for men fighting excess Estrogen. According to many articles, Progesterone “balances the estrogens that build in a man's body.” Progesterone for Men It is said to be an antagonist against “the effect of estrogen and chemical estrogens. It is like a tug of war. Estrogen pulls on one side and Natural Progesterone pulls on the other side. John Lee, MD claims that the hormones must be balanced.” Why Natural Progesterone Works
My problem with the above quotes is that they seem vague - confusing and quite possibly misleading. Or maybe they aren’t… that’s why I’ve started this thread.
From everything I’ve read on this forum, typically from pm, nails, Plymouth and cc, it’s that that Progesterone has feminizing characteristics which make it unreliable. Exactly. You are thinking right hereThat it could enhance an already elevated Estrogen problem in men. I assume it’s like other unpredicatable (precursor) agents such as DHEA, where because of the amount of hormones it can convert to, (and your picture as it stands) you’re working with a mixed bag. Without a doubt. Thats why Pregnenolone is used, because it causes a small safe rise in progesterone.
The fog seems to roll in at this point…. I have noticed that most of the pro-Progesterone buzz around the Internet keep using the terminology “low Testosterone” and “low Progesterone” combined with “excess Estrogens” as the perfect scenario for Progesterone working. In this “perfect picture,” it seems like they are assuming that taking progesterone will channel to increase Progesterone (obviously),Testosterone,This is WAY down the hormonal tree. Progesterone has to convert into several other steroids before it hits T, most notably 17 hydroxy progesterone and then an andro. It will be a complete mixed bad and probably what little T you would get from it would be HIGHLY offset due to the feminizing characteristics that one would get from having high progesterone, which is what you would get if you took straight progesterone and work to lower EstrogenAgain, lowering estrogen is starting to become a fallacy in itself, men need it, only when it goes above range should it be addressed, and then using something to block it such as adex. But what exactly is considered “low Testosterone” – is that low TOTAL or low FREE/BIOAVAILABLE? It makes a BIG difference does it not?I have pretty much come to the conclusion that I am abandoning all blood tests for the most part. 24 Hour Urines are SO MUCH superior to them its not even a comparision worth making
For example my situation – I have high Total T, very low Free/Bioavailable T, high E2, impaired cortisol /DHEA output, low normal Progesterone, Hypothyroid. Using progesterone as a precursor here, where is the stuff going to go? Again, unless this is all verified by a 24 hour urine panel, I wouldn't buy into these tests necessarily. I’ve broken it down into possibilites:
1. If Progesterone converts to Estrogen through the process of aromatization than history has shown that taking Progesterone will cause even more aromatization in my case. I have taken HCG in the past and it went straight to more estrogen no bones about it. I bloated bad.again, this is a fallacy. hcG does not go directly into estrogen, it raises baseline T which may convert to E, but blame only yourself and your own body for aromatizing T into E, not hcG. Either way, I have never heard of anyone using straight hcG solo at 500IU per week having E2 issues
2. Progesterone is said to be a precursor to the adrenals as well. TrueIt could channel to cortisol and DHEA in my caseTrue – both of which are low. I can see this happening. More DHEA could lead to aromatizationNot at less than 100mg per day on this channel as well. I have an over normal total T.again, I have totally abanded blood tests, with the exception of IGF-1
Outcome 3 is the magic result because it assumes that like the above VAGUE quotes, “Estrogen pulls on one side and Natural Progesterone pulls on the other side.” This is a made up statement, no facts behind thisThat there needs to be a balance. My questions are – what the heck does that mean? Does Progesterone aromatize or not? My question is – if someone is full in both tanks – ie. Estrogen and Testosterone are full, what is the benefit of Progesterone?If someone is full of T naturally, they likely have enough of all the other steroids such as E and prog Heck what would be the benefit of Pregnenolone iPreg is used when someone is on HRT because their body stops making other androgens such as pregnenolonef both of these are full and you are looking to correct excess EE should only be 'corrected" if it is out of range? Ultimately they both will cascade in similar fashions depending on what your hormones look like. And if both are high, what is the stuff going to do? Some of the articles on the Internet are telling me that instead of excess Estrogen, Progesterone will find a way to lower it... but it seems odd that it (like HCG for example) wouldn't just aromatize.Don't believe all the crap you read on the net
Does it have some special "balancing" powers against aromatization?
My progesterone was below range .5 (.6-2.6)
Also low was total T, Free T, DHEA, DHT, cortisol, pregnenolone, with HIGH E2( double range)
Dr. Mariano prescribed pregnenolone, dhea, cortef, and Armour for Hashimoto's.
I've been thinking maybe I should supplement progesterone cream to improve base levels and also to keep estrogen and DHT in check.
My progesterone was below range .5 (.6-2.6)
Also low was total T, Free T, DHEA, DHT, cortisol, pregnenolone, with HIGH E2( double range)
Dr. Mariano prescribed pregnenolone, dhea, cortef, and Armour for Hashimoto's.
I've been thinking maybe I should supplement progesterone cream to improve base levels and also to keep estrogen and DHT in check.
Nope
I wouldn't do that
Preg cream should give you enough prog
Your prog was low because your body was making little steroids period
ThanksPlymouth, for the response. What preg cream would be best? I would like it to equal the 100mg precribed by the Dr.. I have been told that too much pregnenolone along with cortisol supplementation could cause cushing's. How's the dermacrine?
Call me crazy but doing 50 mgs iodoral with 200 mgs of iron seems to be lowering my e2.. Bringing ferritin levels back up inot the 150-160 range will reactivate the metabolic pathways associated with estrogen detoxifcations. Progrmmer if you up iodoral to 50 mgs a day I bet you could even lower your adex even alittlle more !! The evidence seems to be there. My estrogen problesm did not happen untill my ferritin levels sunk down below 100
With out proper ferritin iodine does not get taken up inot the thyroid or body either..
Adding in the preg cream with help with manage e2 as well and also DHT which can increaes caetcholines leading to anxiety.
For example my situation –
I have high Total T,
very low Free/Bioavailable T,
high E2,
If you use Arimidex (wisely and frequently), you will get your E2 just right
That should reduce amount of testosterone being converted to E2,
should raise your TotalT and indirectly BAT.
Lower E2 should also lower your SHBG, further increasing your BAT.
ThanksPlymouth, for the response. What preg cream would be best? I would like it to equal the 100mg precribed by the Dr.. I have been told that too much pregnenolone along with cortisol supplementation could cause cushing's. How's the dermacrine?
Compounded pregnenolone is compounded pregnenolone...Its all the same, just go with a reputable pharmacy such as womens international, etc.
100mg of preg cream a day should be fine. How much cortisol are you on? Remember, preg breaks down into DHEA which helps offset high cortisol
Been off Dermacrine for awile. I am currently undertaking a much more major experiment. Details to follow soon
A look at the Progesterone precursor cascade. 
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