Low libido may not be due to low testosterone (CNN article)

[The_Skeptic]

NEW YORK (Reuters) -- While there's a statistical link between men's sex drive and their testosterone levels, in practice there's little meaningful difference in testosterone levels between men with low libido and those with high libido, researchers report.

Dr. Thomas G. Travison, from the New England Research Institutes in Watertown, Massachusetts, and his associates evaluated data from the Massachusetts Male Aging Study, and report their findings in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism.

Between 1987 and 1989, a total of 1,632 men ages 40 to 70 years were enrolled in the study. They were assessed at the outset and two more times approximately 9 and 15 years later, when 922 and 623 men, respectively, were available.

At each time point, the men completed a self-administered questionnaire asking about the frequency of sexual desire and of sexual thoughts and fantasies, and their hormone levels were measured.

Men with scores of less than 7 points out of a total 14 were classified as having a low libido, which included 19 percent of men at the start of the study, 23 percent after 9 years, and 28 percent at 15 years.

Travison's team reports that, overall, libido was significantly associated with testosterone levels. However, the difference in testosterone levels between participants with low libido and those with high libido was small and "inconsequential."

Looked at the other way, a low libido did not mean a man was particularly likely to have low levels of testosterone.

Therefore, the researchers conclude that if a man complains of reduced libido, it cannot always be interpreted as a sign of testosterone deficiency.

Copyright 2006 Reuters. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/08/01...eut/index.html

[pmgamer18]

Could it be more of the same down grading low t. We all know libido has a lot to do with a lot more this T levels. Stress, old age, low Cortisol, diet, weight, meds hell I could be here a long time. Lately there has been a lot in the meda about Low T and it is not good news there pushing so what is it there trying to prove. That men on TRT is not good.

[pcgizzmo]

You can make the numbers show anything you want. Low T is directly correlated with low libido. Now, other things have to be there but you can't tell me taking away T will not affect the libido. Didn't they castrate the male servants in ancient times to keep them from poking all kings concubine?

Paul

[farmerjohn]

There are so many flaws with that study its nothing more than a joke. Did they look only at total T? What about Free T? what about E2? What about prolactin? The suggestion that T levels have nothing to do with libido is nothing but ludicrous. I think my old urologist must have had something to do with this study, lol. What a bunch of nonsense.

[love_en]

Does this mean that doctors will now start to pay more attention to thyroid and adrenal function? Nah, too simple, efficient and cost effective. Last time I checked Armour and Cortef were very cheap medications. Conspicuously absent from this study were the other tests that a thinking doctor would run. Also how much difference between each man's T level? I agree, this is more propaganda to discourage HRT. BTW, the reason why I demanded a workup for hypogonadism and treatment for the same had nothing to do with my libido. At one point, I was becoming so weakened and physically depleted that sex was the last thing on my mind. I was more worried about how I was going to make it out of bed and through each day. Whoever conducted this study deserves to be castrated. It pisses me off to no end that someone who should know better trivializes the importance of testosterone for a man's health by simply associating it with sex.

[Ruper]

Originally Posted by pcgizzmo

You can make the numbers show anything you want. Low T is directly correlated with low libido. Now, other things have to be there but you can't tell me taking away T will not affect the libido. Didn't they castrate the male servants in ancient times to keep them from poking all kings concubine?

Paul

Saying low testosterone wil cause lowered libido is not the same as saying low libido means low testosterone.

All they are saying is that just because libido is low, does not necessarily mean your testosterone is low. There are many factors that influence libido, and it would not surprise me if in the general population the more significant fatcors did not include testosterone levels.

I'd say stress would be up there as a main factor. Other social factors too.

[Ruper]

Originally Posted by farmerjohn

The suggestion that T levels have nothing to do with libido is nothing but ludicrous.

Where did they say that? The 'study' just suggests it is not the main single factor. Is says nothing about what would happen in a particular population if you systematically changes T levels without changing anything else.

[marianco]

Originally Posted by The_Skeptic

NEW YORK (Reuters) -- While there's a statistical link between men's sex drive and their testosterone levels, in practice there's little meaningful difference in testosterone levels between men with low libido and those with high libido, researchers report.

Dr. Thomas G. Travison, from the New England Research Institutes in Watertown, Massachusetts, and his associates evaluated data from the Massachusetts Male Aging Study, and report their findings in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism.

Between 1987 and 1989, a total of 1,632 men ages 40 to 70 years were enrolled in the study. They were assessed at the outset and two more times approximately 9 and 15 years later, when 922 and 623 men, respectively, were available.

At each time point, the men completed a self-administered questionnaire asking about the frequency of sexual desire and of sexual thoughts and fantasies, and their hormone levels were measured.

Men with scores of less than 7 points out of a total 14 were classified as having a low libido, which included 19 percent of men at the start of the study, 23 percent after 9 years, and 28 percent at 15 years.

Travison's team reports that, overall, libido was significantly associated with testosterone levels. However, the difference in testosterone levels between participants with low libido and those with high libido was small and "inconsequential."

Looked at the other way, a low libido did not mean a man was particularly likely to have low levels of testosterone.

Therefore, the researchers conclude that if a man complains of reduced libido, it cannot always be interpreted as a sign of testosterone deficiency.

Copyright 2006 Reuters. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/08/01...eut/index.html

A problem in scientific studies is that they tend to focus on only one factor. In a condition as complex as libido, where numerous factors are in play, incomplete answers are the outcome, which can easily lead to misinterpretations.

The conclusion of the study is that low libido cannot be intepreted solely as a sign of testosterone deficiency.

The misinterpretation that is easily made is that testosterone treatment should not be considered when one has low libido.

I wish the researchers had measured more factors than just testosterone so that they could have teased out the circumstances when low testosterone correlates with low libido out of the confounding factors that were most likely present (e.g. low thyroid, adrenal fatigue, atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease, diabetes, etc. etc.). These confounding factors undoubtedly masked any correlation there was between low testosterone and low libido.

If anything, the researches could have at least stated the possible confounding factors and weaknesses in their study - as good research generally does - rather than stand pat on a conclusion which can be so easily misinterpreted and sensationalized.

[Normandy]

Again, putting to words what my mind and gut would like to say but can never quite explain it so clear.

Im glad you're still posting on this board, Marianco.




-- Normandy

[love_en]

That states my point exactly. First impression of this study suggests an anti-TRT agenda. My anger towards the researchers stems from their innocent or deliberate support of the anti-TRT agenda. Not to mention the omission of the other critical factors affecting libido.

[solo47]

It's all in the mind, that abstract, relational space through which we experience life. I shot up all sorts of shit from Test to Mast to HCG that usually drives me over the edge with lust, but then went for drinks with professional colleagues. Couldn't help but note the tension across my belly. My habit routines & relational protocol were causing me to suppress the increased animal drives within me. I had to suppress any lusty thoughts/feelings as well as the tendency to mock stupid things that got said. Of course, extra Test will add to your sex drive — IF you're in a position that your natural libido would have roused to the challenge anyway! Test will not overcome psychological inhibitions. And some gents have those built deeply in from way back.

Solo

[chap]

Actually I think that they are actually clued in to the realities of the complexities of libido. Many many guys go into trt thinking that it will be the answer to all libido issues forever, and then find out that their libido was actually stronger and erection and ejaculatory function were much better while natural with low testosterone, then compared to anything they are able to achieve with any trt program.

It should be required reading for those considering hrt, that many men are very dissatisfied with hrt. Check out all the threads on here about guys wanting off hrt and attempting recovery. Also check out all the threads on here about guys continually having to adjust and experiment with their hrt protocals and never seeming to be able to find a perfect solution. It is not an easy simple perfect solution, far from it.

[love_en]

Originally Posted by chap

Actually I think that they are actually clued in to the realities of the complexities of libido. Many many guys go into trt thinking that it will be the answer to all libido issues forever, and then find out that their libido was actually stronger and erection and ejaculatory function were much better while natural with low testosterone, then compared to anything they are able to achieve with any trt program.

It should be required reading for those considering hrt, that many men are very dissatisfied with hrt. Check out all the threads on here about guys wanting off hrt and attempting recovery. Also check out all the threads on here about guys continually having to adjust and experiment with their hrt protocals and never seeming to be able to find a perfect solution. It is not an easy simple perfect solution, far from it.

A common issue I keep on seeing in those of us who do not miraculously go back to normal after going on TRT is adrenal and thyroid insufficiency. The problem is doctors have the same ignorance and stubborness concerning those problems as they do low T. Because of the flawed reference ranges for thyroid and adrenal tests, along with the head up the ass mentality of the AACE, there are many of us who do have problems in those areas. For example, I had a response to an ACTH stim test that would have scared the crap out of Dr Jeffries. My cortisol did not double from baseline, it only went 10 points up. I think that is called low adrenal reserve. I have had problems long before I knew what testosterone or cortisol were. I was always underweight and I had a severe reaction to warm weather. Which meant that 8 months out of the year I would be in various states of malaise. Hawaii was not paradise for me back then.

I know Phil is finding out that he is adrenal insufficient due to being hypopituitary. Because of doctors taking reference ranges as gospel and their prejudice against supplementing corticosteroids, someone like him or myself is all too often passed off as normal. I have said this before, we should not have to suffer because doctors do not know how to properly prescribe Armour thyroid or they overdose people on prednisone and are phobic of hydrocortisone due to the side effects they see from that overdose.

[chap]

bottom line is that I think it is good to see an article like this one, as it counters the widely held belief that going on hrt and injecting testosterone would be the answer to all male problems

many still believe that, and many of us did believe that at one time until we found out the hard way

[Sunkist]

Originally Posted by love_en

That states my point exactly. First impression of this study suggests an anti-TRT agenda. My anger towards the researchers stems from their innocent or deliberate support of the anti-TRT agenda. Not to mention the omission of the other critical factors affecting libido.

Well said. That is the first thing my paranoia picked out. Many of us here are as you say still trying to figure it out, but we are ahead of the game. The agenda is what bothers me. I don't want to go back however... the depression was the worst before TRT.