To Marianco ; Vitamin C, DA> Norepi > anxiety> adrenal fatigue.

[chip douglas]

Hi Marianco,

Would you be so kind as to let me know if the following is possible :

I've had the official diagnosis of adrenal fatigue by my new M.D. whom I told you about a week or so ago.

Now, clearly I have low resistance to stress. I've attemped moderate doses of Ascorbic Acid for 3 weeks, from 1000 - 1500 Mg per day, and this not only didn't help but caused my libido to further plummet. If however, I take Tryptophan, then the reverse takes place. In my mind this makes sense, but I want to know from your point of view whether this can be expected in some.

My conjecture is as follows : Ascorbic acid is needed to convert DA to Norepi. and Norepi. is elevated in those with adrenal fatigue, so by taking moderately high doses of Vitamin C, then I figured that I may further enhance the DA to Norepi. pathway. I know that AA is supposed to modulate catecholamines, and PRL, and thus anxiety : http://www.moodfoods.com/ascorbicacid.html

But is it possible that in some with adrenal fatigue, if Vitamin C is used standalone, that it can lead to increased Norepi activity, and thus further fatiguing the adrenals through increased stress signals ? This is exactly what's happened to me.

When I'm on Vitamin C alone, at the dosages I mentioned above, my sex drive goes all the way down. When I stop the vitamin C however, then some sex drive re-surface.

I've spent the last 3 weeks conducting this experiment on myself, and it's good to note that I've not used any other supplements during that time.

Essentially, I'd like to know whether my above conjecture is valid.

Best regards

[marianco]

It is very difficult to do experimentation on oneself when the measures are anxiety and sex drive.

Just the realization that one is in an experiment and has expectations of the outcome causes stress which can increase norepinephrine levels which can then increase anxiety and reduce sex drive - irrespective of whether or not Vitamin C is there. This is why when subjects are in experiments, a double-blind placebo controlled study is often best - where the subject doesn't know what they are taking and the experimenter doesn't know what they are giving. The placebo effect can be extremely potent as is the knowledge of being in an experiment. Just the increase in thinking about the subject and self-observation - increases stress and anxiety.

Taking tryptophan - which has sedative properties - may have reduced one's anxiety during such an experiment - thus undoing the increase in anxiety of the experiment itself. But then, this introduces another variable into the experiment that complicates interpretation.

As a physician, I see large numbers of patients and can thus see patterns in response that one may not see in an individual. This gives me a much more powerful vantage point to observe responses to medications or other interventions to gain an understanding of the processes involved, than one has if one experiments on oneself.

Norepinephrine is not always raised in adrenal fatigue. The other neurotransmitters - serotonin, GABA, dopamine - may be reduced instead, thus causing a relative increase in norepinephrine, not an absolute increase in norepinephrine. This also has to be correlated with brain function. Glutamate may be increased rather than norepinephrine, etc.

Many times, adrenal fatigue does not exist without other comorbid conditions such as hypogonadism or hypothyroidism or nutritional deficiencies. This complicates the picture greatly, making it more difficult to do an adrenal treatment in isolation since the other comorbid conditions may link together with adrenal fatigue and may have to be addressed simultaneously.

When taking a single nutrient - such as Vitamin C - one may be assuming that one's nutrition of other nutrients is optimal. This may not be the case. Thus deficiencies in other nutrients may be exposed when Vitamin C is taken, particularly at large doses.

When Vitamin C is taken alone, it can reduce copper, manganese, and zinc absorption - resulting in a deficiency of these if one's levels were low to begin with - resulting in unwanted effects. Zinc deficiency, for example, can cause reduced sex drive or libido.

A copper deficiency may then impair activity of dopamine-beta-hydroxylase - impairing conversion of dopamine to norepinephrine - undoing Vitamin C's effects on dopamine-beta-hydroxylase.

Vitamin C as an antioxidant helps adrenal function. It is concentrated in the adrenal glands and brain is up to 20 times more than the rest of the body.

In the brain, Vitamin C can reduce NMDA glutamate receptor responsiveness to glutamate, which may then help increase dopamine activity, which may then reduce norepinephrine activity, etc.

Thus the story is complex and may depend on the individual's situation - the interactions among the neurotransmitters, hormone, cytokines, nutrients, medications, stresses, health status, etc. Which direction a person may go depends on the balance of the metabolic pathways activated by an intervention. Some pathways (e.g. Vitamin C's effect on dopamine and norepinephrine or Testosterone's effect on thyroid hormone) can go both ways (up or down).

One has to make some hypothesis and change treatment if unwanted effects occur. But it can be made much more difficult by very complex interactions among the neurotransmitters, hormones, cytokines, and nutrients.

And that's partially the rest of the story.

[chip douglas]

No doubt you have a very broad understanding of all of it--thanks for your reply Marianco. I also realize that the inclusion of only one nutrient can cause deficiencies in others over time. Indeed 2+2 rarely equals 4 in the human body.

I'll continue reading James Wilson's book, as I've began reading it days ago. I think you even recommend people to read it--I seem to recall one of your post in which you wrote this.

I'm also seeing my Dr. whom I told you about not long ago--we'll see what he feels is involved other than adrenal fatigue.

Regards

[pmgamer18]

Chip I found this book "Safe Uses for Cortisol" a much better book to help with Adrenal Fatigue much better then Wilson's supplements in his book. I have not talked to one person that did good treating this would do Isocort or cortef.

http://members.aol.com/jefferiesw/
http://www.ccthomas.com/details.cfm?...=9780398075002

I added this stuff and can say if it helps or not.
Fish Oil 3 x's /day.
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...v=&browse=&s=1

Super Bio C. 2 x's /day.
http://www.myvitanet.com/supbiocbuf36.html

DHEA 25 mgs. 1 x's /day.
http://www.myvitanet.com/dhea260capph.html

End Fatigue Daily Energy B Complex. 1 x's /day.
http://www.myvitanet.com/endfadaenbco.html


Zinc & Copper 50 mgs./2 mgs. 1 x's /day.
http://www.myvitanet.com/zincop100cnt.html

Maca Power 1/2 tsb 2 x's /day.
http://www.macaweb.com/view.cfm/hurl...aw-Maca-Powder

I think with most of use we have had this problem so long that we are stuck needing Cortef of HC for life. In my case my Adrenals are good just don't get the messages to make enough cortisol. My Pituitarey keeps my levels of DHEA , Cortisol and Thyroid right at the low normal range. I am on 10 mgs of Cortef in the morning with 1 grain of Armour and 5 mgs. of Cortef at noon with 1 grain of Armour and dinner time. I can't say I feel all the much better still house bound don't get out much and I am 63 and was hoping by now I would be over the bad fatigue. But still I may need more Armour some tell me to up my Dose of cortef to 25mgs or if this does not help then try 30 mgs. not ready to do this yet.

[chip douglas]

Thank you very much Phil--I'll go through this information later on this evening.