My DIM / TMG Results

[earthdog]

Well, this might be one of the first "before and after" tests for someone taking DIM and TMG to combat high total estrogen.

On TRT since January '05. Problems: water retention and puffy, tingly nipples. Still battling fatigue and having difficulty losing fat despite diet and exercise, although the fatigue and mood is greatly improved since going on TRT.

Here are my dosages and relevant assay numbers:

2/5/05 - 100mg Test cyp per week, at the 5-week mark:
---------------------------------------------------------
Total T 556 (241-827)
Free T 210 (34-194)
BioAvail T 422 (84-402)
SHBG 11 (7-50)
Estradiol Ultra Sensitive 22 (13-54)
Total Estrogen 153 (130 or less)
DHT 32 (25-75)


6/28/05 - 100mg Test cyp per week, 250IU hCG twice weekly, 120mg DIM daily (The DIM was self-prescribed and is the BioResponse formula)
Also taking a lot of fat loss supps (Scorch, Sesathin, Leptigen Rebirth)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Total T 683 (241-827)
Free T 234 (34-194)
BioAvail T 431 (84-402)
SHBG 18 (7-50)
Estradiol Ult. Sen. 32 (13-54)
Total Estrogen 168 (130 or less)
DHT 45 (25-75)
* Total T4 5.0 (3.8-12.0)
* TSH 1.67 (.4-5.5)
* - the thyroid tests were taken by a different doctor. Previously they had not been bad on paper, but the number may have been artificially increased by the fat loss stuff, particularly Scorch


9/6/05 - 100mg Test cyp per week, 250IU hCG twice weekly, 300mg DIM
daily (BioResponse DIM), 750mg TMG daily 1/2 grain Armour Thyroid daily]
NO fat loss supps taken for 8-10 weeks
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Total T 625 (241-827)
Free T 216 (34-194)
BioAvail T 415 (84-402)
SHBG 17 (7-50)
Estradiol, Ult. Sen. 37 (10-50) (note the reference range has gone down while my number has gone up)
Total Estrogen 224 (130 or less)
DHT - results aren't back yet
Free T4 .9 (.8-1.8)
Free T3 368 (230-420)
TSH 2.06 (.4-5.5)

So from this, I'd have to conclude that the DIM/TMG isn't doing anything for me, and may in fact be making things worse. What about thyroid? Opinions?

[benrock]

dim does not work , use ldex from ag guys 1/2 cc 2 times a week and you will fall in range at those levels

[mranak]

Well, if total estrogens includes estrogen metabolites, then in a way it makes sense that DIM would increase them. But I think SWALE uses DIM to lower total estrogens in some men, so nevermind.

Perhaps you could drop the DIM, and let us know the results of you next blood test.

[mranak]

Originally Posted by benrock

dim does not work

lab tests and subjective evidence suggest that Indolplex DIM does work for many men. But so do the AIs, of course.

[maxzax]

Originally Posted by benrock

dim does not work , use ldex from ag guys 1/2 cc 2 times a week and you will fall in range at those levels

benrock,

What is ldex from ag guys?

Thanks!!!

[SPE]

Check the advertisement at the top of the page. It's liquid Arimidex. While yes it is cheaper and readily available, I just don't trust the quality.

[earthdog]

Right. I have read here before that DIM works for some guys but not others. You have all seen posts from Phil and DavidZ where they take tiny doses of DIM and get good results. Compared to what they're taking, I'm taking a megadose. I too am thinking that I need arimidex, but I'll wait to see what the doc says.

I know very little about thyroid. What do you guys think about my thyroid numbers? Free T4 seems very low. With these numbers, would you expect that losing fat would be difficult?

[maxzax]

Earthdog,

On the H2 board there was discussion that olive oil aids absorption of DIM, and there is also a specific brand of DIM which works better then other brands, I forget which one, but if you look thru any of Phil's post he'll mention it.

Your results are very strange for being on DIM with increased E2 and Total E.

I don't know enuff about thyroids to comment on those numbers.

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by maxzax

Earthdog,

On the H2 board there was discussion that olive oil aids absorption of DIM, and there is also a specific brand of DIM which works better then other brands, I forget which one, but if you look thru any of Phil's post he'll mention it.

Your results are very strange for being on DIM with increased E2 and Total E.

I don't know enuff about thyroids to comment on those numbers.

I have tried a lot of brands of DIM and the one that works is Indolplex/DIM I get it here and a lot of the guys that use it say it works very will. Most start on one half a pill and go to low.
http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html
When I first started on HCG 500 IU's my T levels doubled and my E2 went up then I took a whole pill of Indolplex/DIM and a half of a one mg. Arimidex every 5 days to keep my E2 in check. What are you taking the brand name for HCG. I see your T numbers did not go up much on it. Maybe you have one of the generic brands like I have had trouble with. I did try BioResponse DIM and it did not do a thing for me. Plus it comes in cap's and the Indolplex/DIM is tablets and can be cut. If my levels were as low as yours I would be in bad shape. I need my levels up over 800 are your labs range for Free and Total T for a young man I don't use the range for my age 61 that is bull shit. You need to get this E2 and total E down so your Total and Free T levels will come up. Ask your DR. for Arimidex and get some Indolplex/DIM I do take both when it gets bad. If my E2 goes up my TT and FT suffer. It is dam hard to feel good with E2 up and TT and FT down that low. What is the range for a young man. I first read about using the ranges for a young man in this link. Plus they say E2 should be between 10 and 30 for any age man.
http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcls-...prtcl-130.html
Note: I do not buy any of the products at this link but the info is dam good.
Phil

[SPE]

I've had a similar experience, but not nearly as bad. I had been on androgel 5g and 500 iu/week of hcg and was tested at 39 for E2(<54). I started taking one Indoplex DIM from Phytopharmacia daily and switched to a compounded creme. Next test showed Total T at 616(down from 757 on the androgel) and E2 at 35(down from 39). SO, with the T going down I don't think the Indoplex really did anything. I bumped it up to two pills before bed and switched to injections 100mg/week so I'll see if the e2 goes down now.

[Random987]

What is the H2 board? thx

Originally Posted by maxzax

Earthdog,

On the H2 board there was discussion that olive oil aids absorption of DIM, and there is also a specific brand of DIM which works better then other brands, I forget which one, but if you look thru any of Phil's post he'll mention it.

Your results are very strange for being on DIM with increased E2 and Total E.

I don't know enuff about thyroids to comment on those numbers.

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by Random987

What is the H2 board? thx

Here is a link and today Dr. John is posted there.
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/hypogonadism2/
Phil

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by SPE

I've had a similar experience, but not nearly as bad. I had been on androgel 5g and 500 iu/week of hcg and was tested at 39 for E2(<54). I started taking one Indoplex DIM from Phytopharmacia daily and switched to a compounded creme. Next test showed Total T at 616(down from 757 on the androgel) and E2 at 35(down from 39). SO, with the T going down I don't think the Indoplex really did anything. I bumped it up to two pills before bed and switched to injections 100mg/week so I'll see if the e2 goes down now.

Here is what David Z told me and it worked after a week on the Indolplex/DIM I got my morning wood back. I have not had this in over 35 yrs. and it was back big time so hard it woke me up. David said this would happen and that I can use this as a gauge to keep from going to low on E2. He said when it stops the morning wood that is. It means your E2 went to low and to stop taking the Indoplex/DIM untill the morning wood comes back then go back on it but take half the dose. Keep doing this untill you find the right dose. I find this works good for me. So do you have morning wood the kind that wakes you up. If not you will know it is working when this happens.
Phil

[SPE]

I do get it most of the time(5-6 days per week), it just hasn't seemed to make a dent in serum e2. I should probably stop trying to treat the number and pay more attention to how I feel.

[pmgamer18]

That is what I do but when my Blood is tested I get it checked. I have my blood tested every 6 weeks now was every 4 weeks. If my E2 goes up I break out in a rash on the back of my califs always in the same spots. And my ED comes back and taking the pill will not help. I get this when my E2 goes over 35. So I can tell most times where my E2 is by how I feel and my Dick Feels.
Phil