Men's Health Forum: This is a discussion on my low T story, comments/ideas appreciated within the Anabolic Steroids forums, part of the extensive steroid information at MESO-Rx; I just found this board this week. What a great find. You guys are on the cutting edge and definitely ...
I just found this board this week. What a great find. You guys are on the cutting edge and definitely know more than most doctors. Sorry for the length but here is what happened to me.
Around the age of 39-40 I started to notice a decline in sexual performance/libido. I didnt pay too much attention to it at first. We were trying to have a child and I had to perform on command and figured that was the problem. Over a 2 year period things progressively got worse. I realized eventually that I rarely had libido and I had performance anxiety. I started to do some reading on the internet and diagnosed myself with low T.
I went to a uro who checked me (now at age 42) and my Total T was 98, LH was 4.2, FSH 1.6. So I was diagnosed secondary. He put me on androgel. I was so excited to find the problem and do something I didnt wonder if it was the right move or not. The Androgel worked pretty well but I still had periods of low libido that could last weeks to even months. My T was up to 500's on 10 g / day. Of course thats all he checked. I read more and discovered HCG and clomid. Went for a second opinion to another uro who said they were not proven to work so I took his word for it and continued on androgel for the next 3 1/2 years .....4 total.
By the end of the 4th year I was sick of the long periods of low libido (accompanied by ED) and demanded to have my E2 checked amoung other things. E2 was 37 with total T in 500's and Free T slightly above the normal range so theoretically I looked good on those numbers but something was still not right. So I decided enough of the fools I was going to....I decided to go to Shippen.
So far (as I posted in another thread) he started me on 500 iu HCG 3 times a week. That got me up to 300 total T. Then 700 iu 3 times a week. Still at 300. Then switched to 300 iu 7 times a week (same dose but daily) and it seemed to help. Then I started a new bottle of Novarel and things went back to crap and my level dropped to 200 at last check. My E2 levels have been running around 37 while on HCG also.
I also have hypothyrodism and SHippen has upped my Synthroid significantly and has my TSH level down to 2.7. Other info.....I dont smoke, drink moderately but daily, exercise bicycle and weight lifting and am fairly fit and trim....especially for 46 years old.
I would appreciate any comments on what I should talk to Dr. Shippen about next. I have the greatest faith in him but wont have much time with him and want to know what if anything I should push for or prefer to try first when I go in there. This is taking quite a while to get me working and its getting old. Here are some specific questions and thoughts I have for you guys:
1. After 4 years on TRT and noticeable atrophy, how long should I expect it to take for my boys to start working again? They are larger now but I dont know if that means they will ever work or not. I have been taking the HCG for just over 3 months.
2. Has there been a lot of problems with getting bad HCG? I am now on APP brand because my insurance will only give it to me thru their mail order and that pharmacy tells me Ferring has banned them from giving Novarel to anyone but women trying to become pregnant.
3. I want to stay on HCG so prevent any more atrophy even if I supplement with replacement. Dr Shippen mentioned adding a cream to the mix but that was before he saw my level drop to 200 on this last check (again it could be from a bad vial of Novarel). If he decides to have me inject T, does anyone know what guage needle he uses for that and is it subQ or IM? The HCG is subQ in the mid thigh area which I can easily give to myself.
4. In general is the cream a better option than injecting T or do most people on the cream take it to avoid the injections?
What is frustrating to me is the Androgel seemed by the numbers like it should work. I had total T in the 500's, Free T 135 pg/ml, E2 around 37. Dr. Shippens target total T for me is in the upper 500's based on my SHBG level which he says is very good and makes his job easier. But the androgel only made me feel good sometimes, not even close to half the time near the end. I will see Dr Shippen in about 10 days so I want to have some questions ready for him.
THanks for any help. I'm sure I left something out. If so, let me know.
I started on T shots and switched to androgel. The androgel seemed to help my sexual performance for about 2 weeks then suddenly seemed to really cause bad ED. As far as feeling good, energy, etc. the shots were far better. I am not sure why this occured, possibly increased estrogen steadly until low libido and ED kicked in. I have always used HCG with my testosterone so I havent had any problems with testicular atrophy. On shots now and I feel good, only issues are slight ED, and bloating at times:-/ I believe this is due to higher estrogen levels, but as of right now I am going to be trying an OTC supplement I3C to convert bad estrogen to good or something like that. Sounds to me like your estrogen is high as well, and from what these guys say, can ruin your sex life.
So I guess you think for me 37 is too high for E2? I'm sure the level is different for everyone. Shippen has been thinking mine is ok at 37 though his book says levels above 35 are suspect. One thing is I noticed right after I switched to 300 iu HCG per day, 7 days a week I felt the best I had it years. This lasted for about 1 1/2 weeks and then I changed vials shortly AFTER the feeling left. So I'm left wondering, was it the change in vials or was it something else? Unfortunately I dont have a good blood test when I was feeling good. I think the next time I get to that state I will go get everything checked so we can see a baseline of what works for me. I guess its typical to feel good for a short time when T gets high enough but then when E2 follows you go back to crap so maybe you're right. Thanks for the advice.
I just found this board this week. What a great find. You guys are on the cutting edge and definitely know more than most doctors. Sorry for the length but here is what happened to me.
Around the age of 39-40 I started to notice a decline in sexual performance/libido. I didnt pay too much attention to it at first. We were trying to have a child and I had to perform on command and figured that was the problem. Over a 2 year period things progressively got worse. I realized eventually that I rarely had libido and I had performance anxiety. I started to do some reading on the internet and diagnosed myself with low T.
I went to a uro who checked me (now at age 42) and my Total T was 98, LH was 4.2, FSH 1.6. So I was diagnosed secondary. He put me on androgel. I was so excited to find the problem and do something I didnt wonder if it was the right move or not. The Androgel worked pretty well but I still had periods of low libido that could last weeks to even months. My T was up to 500's on 10 g / day. Of course thats all he checked. I read more and discovered HCG and clomid. Went for a second opinion to another uro who said they were not proven to work so I took his word for it and continued on androgel for the next 3 1/2 years .....4 total.
By the end of the 4th year I was sick of the long periods of low libido (accompanied by ED) and demanded to have my E2 checked amoung other things. E2 was 37 with total T in 500's and Free T slightly above the normal range so theoretically I looked good on those numbers but something was still not right. So I decided enough of the fools I was going to....I decided to go to Shippen.
So far (as I posted in another thread) he started me on 500 iu HCG 3 times a week. That got me up to 300 total T. Then 700 iu 3 times a week. Still at 300. Then switched to 300 iu 7 times a week (same dose but daily) and it seemed to help. Then I started a new bottle of Novarel and things went back to crap and my level dropped to 200 at last check. My E2 levels have been running around 37 while on HCG also.
I also have hypothyrodism and SHippen has upped my Synthroid significantly and has my TSH level down to 2.7. Other info.....I dont smoke, drink moderately but daily, exercise bicycle and weight lifting and am fairly fit and trim....especially for 46 years old.
I would appreciate any comments on what I should talk to Dr. Shippen about next. I have the greatest faith in him but wont have much time with him and want to know what if anything I should push for or prefer to try first when I go in there. This is taking quite a while to get me working and its getting old. Here are some specific questions and thoughts I have for you guys:
1. After 4 years on TRT and noticeable atrophy, how long should I expect it to take for my boys to start working again? They are larger now but I dont know if that means they will ever work or not. I have been taking the HCG for just over 3 months.
2. Has there been a lot of problems with getting bad HCG? I am now on APP brand because my insurance will only give it to me thru their mail order and that pharmacy tells me Ferring has banned them from giving Novarel to anyone but women trying to become pregnant.
3. I want to stay on HCG so prevent any more atrophy even if I supplement with replacement. Dr Shippen mentioned adding a cream to the mix but that was before he saw my level drop to 200 on this last check (again it could be from a bad vial of Novarel). If he decides to have me inject T, does anyone know what guage needle he uses for that and is it subQ or IM? The HCG is subQ in the mid thigh area which I can easily give to myself.
4. In general is the cream a better option than injecting T or do most people on the cream take it to avoid the injections?
What is frustrating to me is the Androgel seemed by the numbers like it should work. I had total T in the 500's, Free T 135 pg/ml, E2 around 37. Dr. Shippens target total T for me is in the upper 500's based on my SHBG level which he says is very good and makes his job easier. But the androgel only made me feel good sometimes, not even close to half the time near the end. I will see Dr Shippen in about 10 days so I want to have some questions ready for him.
THanks for any help. I'm sure I left something out. If so, let me know.
Ok you did not give any ranges this makes it hard. I have found that for me and helping others getting Total and Free T up into the upper 1/3 of any labs range for a young man and keeping E2 down between 10 to 30 20 is best. My libido is as good as it was when I was 20. If you being your E2 down your Free T will go up a lot higher. I had bad E2 for a dam long time and it was high E2 for me. Getting my E2 down my ED got 80% better. I also had a dam hard time reaching an orgasm my wife and I still had sex I used a pump an ring. I am 62 been on TRT for over 22 yrs.
Here is what I do I do shots 64 mgs. of Depo T every 3 days in my thigh using a 27g 1ml x 1/2" lg. needle. So you could say this is subQ. I also do my HCG 500 IU's the 2 days each between my T shots. For the other 20% on my ED my Dr. told me to take Cialis 20 mgs every 72 hrs. Wow this did the trick I got my morning wood back and can get it just looking at a nice ass. I take Maca 1/2 tsp 2 x's a day I feel this brings up my libido.
Also go to Dr. John's site and read TRT: A Recipe for Success and his HCG update at www.allthingsmale.com I stopped the gels last yr and went on this and now I am feeling the best I ever felt in the 22 yrs. I have been on TRT. Doing the gels or creams did not do the job for me my joints and muscles hurt so bad I had a hard time walking.
I don't know who Ferring is but they are full of shit you can get Novarel from anyone that has it some have a post here of a place on the net that sends it out and it is I think $35. I get my meds through MedcoHealth and they tried to pull that shit on me I tried APP and it did not work. My Total T was 650 doing 500 IU's of HCG novarel after my 15th shot my total T went up to 1138 my labs range is 262 - 1598
So doing this got me up into the upper 1/3 of the range.
__________________
Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.
Phil
I will post my lab results with ranges. First, let me say Ferring is the company that makes Novarel. I know you can buy it at various places but unfortunately my insurance will only pay if I buy it thru their pharmacy. Their pharmacy (Tel-Drug) tells me that Ferring has told them to only dispense to women trying to get pregnant. I suspect due to the shortage Ferring is asking this of the larger pharmaices but I have no idea, it could be Tel-Drug is lying to me. Anyway, I agree its bullshit but if true this is the attitude of Ferring Labs. I spoke to someone there who can drop ship it to your pharmacy and she said "well we are a fertility drug company after all". Why put sick people behind women trying to get pregnant. Nothing against women trying to get pregnant but come on. We, at least, all know the results of not treating hypogonadism and they go way beyond the sexual side effects. So, I'm going to try the APP I got for free until I ask Shippen about it next week when I see him. He did not put brand required on my script by the way so he may think APP is ok.....don't know yet.
While on androgel (10g/day)
T free 134.9 (20-120 pg/ml)
T free % 2.63 (1.1-2.8%)
T total 535 (241-827 ng/dL)
LH <.5 not measurable
E2 35 (0-53 pg/mL)
No androgel for 10 days and clomid 50 mg / day (clomid test) I wont list all the tests, too many to type but:
Cortisol AM 33.6 (4-22 ug/dL)
E2 24 pg/mL (no range shown)
T total 164 (241-827 ng/dL)
SHBG 17 (7-50 nmol/L)
prolactin 5.3 (3-19 ng.mL)
LH <.5 (1.5-9.3 mIU/mL)
FSH .7 (1.6-8 mIU/mL)
I have not read the links you gave me yet but I will now. By the way, whats the diff between depo T and T cyp?
I did try DIM and zinc while on androgel and didnt notice any difference but I could not get my E2 checked because my dumb ass Dr. didnt believe in checking E2. In fact the one time I did get him to check it, it was only because I told him I wanted it to take to another doctor since he just told me I needed to find an endo since I was getting over his head. His claim was that all he wanted to do was to get my T up and beyond that there was nothing he could do. Thats the type of idiots I have had to work with before going to Dr. Shippen.
My T was up to 500's on 10 g / day. Of course thats all he checked.
E2 was 37 with total T in 500's and Free T slightly above the normal range so theoretically I looked good on those numbers but something was still not right.
E2 was a little high. Getting it between 20 and 30 could have made a big difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerjohn
Then I started a new bottle of Novarel and things went back to crap and my level dropped to 200 at last check.
Could somehow be bad Novarel. Could be caused by shaking too vigorously when mixing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerjohn
I also have hypothyrodism and SHippen has upped my Synthroid significantly and has my TSH level down to 2.7.
Proper thyroid levels are important for libido.
Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerjohn
1. After 4 years on TRT and noticeable atrophy, how long should I expect it to take for my boys to start working again? They are larger now but I dont know if that means they will ever work or not. I have been taking the HCG for just over 3 months.
Not sure. Ask Dr. Shippen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerjohn
2. Has there been a lot of problems with getting bad HCG? I am now on APP brand because my insurance will only give it to me thru their mail order and that pharmacy tells me Ferring has banned them from giving Novarel to anyone but women trying to become pregnant.
I am very suspicious of getting HCG in the mail, because who knows whether it will be placed in direct sunlight en route. I have received things in the mail in the past that were very hot, which means that they were in direct sunlight. The pharmacy is BS'ing you about the Novarel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerjohn
3. I want to stay on HCG so prevent any more atrophy even if I supplement with replacement. Dr Shippen mentioned adding a cream to the mix but that was before he saw my level drop to 200 on this last check (again it could be from a bad vial of Novarel). If he decides to have me inject T, does anyone know what guage needle he uses for that and is it subQ or IM? The HCG is subQ in the mid thigh area which I can easily give to myself.
I don't know what gauge Shippen uses. From posts of other patients of his, he does the T Cyp SubQ in the stomach area. You can do SubQ T Cyp with a 25 gauge 5/8 needle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerjohn
4. In general is the cream a better option than injecting T or do most people on the cream take it to avoid the injections?
The cream is better because it more closely mimics the way the body produces T. T levels are higher in the morning and lower in the evening. Injections are more convenient IMPO, because there is no concern of transfering to family members, and it's done less frequently, like every 3 days. I have used shots and cream, and feel better with cream.
Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerjohn
What is frustrating to me is the Androgel seemed by the numbers like it should work. I had total T in the 500's, Free T 135 pg/ml, E2 around 37.
If you use a higher concentration cream or gel, this could lower your E2. Androgel is a 1% gel, which requires 10grams of cream to be rubbed over a very large area of skin, which will lead to higher estrogen and DHT conversion. Using a 100mg/gram cream, rubbed into the inner bicep area of 1 bicep, alternating biceps daily, will require a much smaller amount of cream to be rubbed into a much smaller area of skin. If you were to go with a daily T Cream and daily HCG regimen, then the amount of cream you would require would probably be only 1/4 of 1gram (25mg of T) which is a very small amount of cream and easily rubbed into the inner area of 1 bicep. The HCG would ensure that your testes maintain their size and function while on TRT. Once your testes have regained their size and function, you will probably only need 100iu of HCG per day.
I did try DIM and zinc while on androgel and didnt notice any difference but I could not get my E2 checked because my dumb ass Dr. didnt believe in checking E2.
Zinc lower's DHT and DIM affects DHT. DHT is very important for libido. Don't take anything that affects DHT.
I just found this board this week. What a great find. You guys are on the cutting edge and definitely know more than most doctors. Sorry for the length but here is what happened to me.
Around the age of 39-40 I started to notice a decline in sexual performance/libido. I didnt pay too much attention to it at first. We were trying to have a child and I had to perform on command and figured that was the problem. Over a 2 year period things progressively got worse. I realized eventually that I rarely had libido and I had performance anxiety. I started to do some reading on the internet and diagnosed myself with low T.
I went to a uro who checked me (now at age 42) and my Total T was 98, LH was 4.2, FSH 1.6. So I was diagnosed secondary. He put me on androgel. I was so excited to find the problem and do something I didnt wonder if it was the right move or not. The Androgel worked pretty well but I still had periods of low libido that could last weeks to even months. My T was up to 500's on 10 g / day. Of course thats all he checked. I read more and discovered HCG and clomid. Went for a second opinion to another uro who said they were not proven to work so I took his word for it and continued on androgel for the next 3 1/2 years .....4 total.
By the end of the 4th year I was sick of the long periods of low libido (accompanied by ED) and demanded to have my E2 checked amoung other things. E2 was 37 with total T in 500's and Free T slightly above the normal range so theoretically I looked good on those numbers but something was still not right. So I decided enough of the fools I was going to....I decided to go to Shippen.
So far (as I posted in another thread) he started me on 500 iu HCG 3 times a week. That got me up to 300 total T. Then 700 iu 3 times a week. Still at 300. Then switched to 300 iu 7 times a week (same dose but daily) and it seemed to help. Then I started a new bottle of Novarel and things went back to crap and my level dropped to 200 at last check. My E2 levels have been running around 37 while on HCG also.
I also have hypothyrodism and SHippen has upped my Synthroid significantly and has my TSH level down to 2.7. Other info.....I dont smoke, drink moderately but daily, exercise bicycle and weight lifting and am fairly fit and trim....especially for 46 years old.
I would appreciate any comments on what I should talk to Dr. Shippen about next. I have the greatest faith in him but wont have much time with him and want to know what if anything I should push for or prefer to try first when I go in there. This is taking quite a while to get me working and its getting old. Here are some specific questions and thoughts I have for you guys:
1. After 4 years on TRT and noticeable atrophy, how long should I expect it to take for my boys to start working again? They are larger now but I dont know if that means they will ever work or not. I have been taking the HCG for just over 3 months.
2. Has there been a lot of problems with getting bad HCG? I am now on APP brand because my insurance will only give it to me thru their mail order and that pharmacy tells me Ferring has banned them from giving Novarel to anyone but women trying to become pregnant.
3. I want to stay on HCG so prevent any more atrophy even if I supplement with replacement. Dr Shippen mentioned adding a cream to the mix but that was before he saw my level drop to 200 on this last check (again it could be from a bad vial of Novarel). If he decides to have me inject T, does anyone know what guage needle he uses for that and is it subQ or IM? The HCG is subQ in the mid thigh area which I can easily give to myself.
4. In general is the cream a better option than injecting T or do most people on the cream take it to avoid the injections?
What is frustrating to me is the Androgel seemed by the numbers like it should work. I had total T in the 500's, Free T 135 pg/ml, E2 around 37. Dr. Shippens target total T for me is in the upper 500's based on my SHBG level which he says is very good and makes his job easier. But the androgel only made me feel good sometimes, not even close to half the time near the end. I will see Dr Shippen in about 10 days so I want to have some questions ready for him.
THanks for any help. I'm sure I left something out. If so, let me know.
There have been lots of reports of variations in the potency of hCG, both over time within the same brand, and across brands ... a guy gets a terrific response from one brand, and another does nothing for him, etc.
It has never made sense to me because hCG is dispensed in IU, which is a measure of a particular lot's activity, or potency, rather than an absolute measure of quantity.
But the complaints are so common that I believe them.
I have no personal experience with it, but a doc I know has been prescribing the recombinant brand of hCG, Ovidrel, to his patients with good results.
Sounds crazy but on two occasions I have had bad HCG, dont know why, maybe they got warm but I do think it happens.
I have had some HCG that worked awesome and others that were just poo poo.
Believe it or not, I feel that HCG if taken in the afternoon gives me better morning wood.
So that is when I take it.
my low T story, comments/ideas appreciated 
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