primary hypogonadism

[benaiah]

I have been off Propecia for 2 months now, and things are still not normal.

Apparently my T levels are still quite low (~350, tested twice)
my FSH is quite high, so the uro is saying I am "primary"

He was going to talk to me about TRT, but i told him I didn't want to shut down my gonads, and so I showed him "David Z's primer..." w/ all of Shippen's protocols, although at the time didn't realize that I didn't really fit that bill because these protocols were for secondary,
He then switched and said, "well if you want to try Clomid for a month, and then have your T levels checked again we can do that. But have a blood test for your T level and LH level one more time, early in the morning, before you start."

So this was two days ago.
I plan on getting bloods early on Monday, and then starting Clomid.

Is this a good idea guys?
Can I cure this high FSH and low T through Clomid?
Does anyone else have "primary", and is it curable without life long treatment?

Also, I wonder if I should just still try to give it more time to heal on it own before I take anything at all.
Its just that its been 2 months, and this waiting is killing me. My nads just don't feel right. Blood results aside, there feels like something is wrong down there.

[Megazoid]

Even though your nut's don't feel right, you aren't in fact primary but secondary. Elevated FSH could be a sign of outstanding thyroid issue and your body's inability to correctly regulate temputure (or not allowing itself) the ability for sperm production.

Proscar/propecia is known to cause secondary in almost all cases. Your nut's not feeling full (Which i am assuming your problem is) is related to low DHT and NO production issues due to hormonal alternations.

Can you post your full blood work please? If you have more than one set (i.e. one with clomid and one without) that would be an added bonus.

You have used one of the most dangerous drug's in the world and a drug known to cause secondary hypogonadism in many users. However i have heard a few really good sucess stories of people that have overcome the problems the drug has caused.

Can you give a better description of what dosen't "feel right" with regards to your nut's? Do you have penis shrinkage also for example?

[benaiah]

My blood results were from over a month ago. and the list is long. Do you want to see other reading other than E , SHBG, or DHT, because I can post if like, but its just long and might flood the post. but if you think it helps.

I'll tell you though:
My SHBG "was" very high, out of range high, five weeks ago, but has now come down to about 41.. idk the reference range, but doc "said" it was fine.
My DHT levels were actually pretty high five weeks ago as well.
E was normal.

**?? Doesn't high FSH indicate "primary" though??

And btw, Yes, I know!!! I feel like the biggest fool in the world for even thinking about touching finasteride. DHT is one of the most important hormones for sexual function in a man, I have found out since.

[Megazoid]

Feel free to post the results again, maybe me and other's can give some input on this?

[benaiah]

open the attachment at this page http://finasteride.jconserv.net/viewtopic.php?t=397
It is a word file.
Tell me what you think please.

[benaiah]

I hadn't eaten for two days prior however. I was on a fast.

Glucose 97 mg/dL 70-105 3-4 weeks post fin.
Urea Nitrogen 12 mg/dL 6-20 3/9/07 – 11am
Creatinine 0.9 mg/dL 0.5-1.2
Sodium 13.9 mEq/L 133-145
Potassium 3.8 mEq/L 3.3-5.1
Chloride 98 mEq/L 96-108
Bicarbonate 29 mEq/L 22-32
Anion Gap 16 mEq/L 8-20

AlaninoAminotransferase (ALT) 18 IU/L 0-40
AsparateAminotransferase (AST) 19 IU/L 0-40
Bilirubin, Total 1.0 mg/dL 0-1.5
Bilirubin, Direct 0.3 mg/dL 0-.3
Bilirubin, Indirect 0.7 mg/dL
Albumin 4.9 g/dL 3.4-4.8
Calcium, Total 9.5 mg/dL 8.4-10.2
Phosphate 2.7 mg/dL 2.7-4.5
Uric Acid 5.5 mg/dL 3.4-7.0
Iron 114 ug/dL 45-160

FSH (Men’s range 1.5-12.4) 10 mIU/mL 2-12
LuteinizingHormone 4.3 mIU/mL 2-10
Prolactin 4.8 ng/mL 4-15

Testosterone, Free 6 pg/mL 8.8-27.0
Testosterone 379 ng/dL 280-800

Estradiol 18 pg/mL 8-45
ProstateSpecificAntigen 0.4 ng/mL 0-4
WhiteBloodCells 4.2 K/uL 4.0-11.0
RedBloodCells 5.02 m/uL 4.6-6.2
Hemoglobin 15.0 g/dL 14.0-18.0
Hematocrit 44.5 % 40-52
MCV 89 fL 82-98
MCH 29.9 pg 27-32
MCHC 33.7 % 31-35
RDW 12.8 % 10.5-15.5
Neutrophils 59.4 % 50-70
Lymphocytes 28.9 % 18-42
Monocytes 7.9 % 2-11
Eosinophils 3.1 % 0-4
Basophils 0.7 % 0-2
Platelet Count 217 K/uL 150-440
SHBG 65 H NMOL/L 5-49
DHT 82 H ng/dL 25-75

[pmgamer18]

Don't do anything get back on a normal diet wait 6 more weeks and retest be sure to go over your supplements, meds and Diet before testing. There is nothing wrong with your FSH your Testis are not kicking in and after 8 weeks if your tests are not better then try doing HCG to kick start your testis. When you shut down your Testis it takes time for them to come back if you were Primary your LH would be way up there. But fasting 3 days like you did the body starts to shut down to keep you alive. You need to live a normal life then test.

[benaiah]

Thank you very much.

The urologist I am seeing gave me a lab sheet for more blood work: Total and free T, FSH and LH for early in the morning, whenever I want to go in this week. Is there anything else imperative you think I should also check off on the back of the blood work lab sheet before I go in?
Btw pgamer, you saw it has been 7 weeks right?

But ok, I will wait 8 more if you think.

So you don't think I should try Clomid to see if T rises?

Isn't it called the Clomid test, in Shippen's protocols... its under "David Z's... primer"

Or should I def still wait a little longer before I try anything?
what you all others think too??
I hope this saves my life men!!

And one last thing. Just to share a little about symptoms. Its mostly discomfort and some numbness that bothers me. I can still get it up and have sex when I need to, and actually today, I was so surprised, shot a load over my head, no joke! ! For the first time. But its just that it hurts all the time. I'm not joking, a lot. and there is a little numbness in my penis, I shit you not. Its like there is some loss/or change of blood flow, idk, or damge that has caused a loss of sensation. There is definately something strange going on down there. Like gurgling in my groin area. Do guys with hypogonadism (ASIH) experience these side effects, or do you think in my case it might be the finasteride?

[pmgamer18]

Yes do wait here are some Ideas if you can get them tested.
This is taken from Dr. John's site at www.allthingsmale.com in TRT: A Recipe for Success.

• Total Testosterone
• Bioavailable Testosterone (AKA "Free and Loosely Bound")
• Free Testosterone (if Bioavailable T is unavailable)
• DHT
• Estradiol (specify the Extraction Method, or "sensitive" assay for
males)
• LH
• FSH
• Prolactin
• Cortisol
* Adrenals Cortisol levels (but we strongly recommend saliva tests, not the one time blood test your doctor will do.
• Thyroid Panel
* TSH
* Free T4 and Free T3 (note the word “free”)
* Thyroid Antibodies (anti-TPO and TgAb. YOU NEED BOTH.)
* Ferritin (and do stress FERRITIN, not just RBC)
• CBC
• Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
• Lipid Profile
• PSA (if over 40)

We use this for cortisol testing.
LAB WORK from Canary Club for special prices. The saliva test is for a full spectrum: thyroid (TSH, free T3, free T4), adrenals (cortisol and DHEA), estrogen, progesterone, testosterone. You can choose from two lab facilities–Diagnos Tech (saliva test for $144.50) or ZRT (saliva plus blood spot test for $199).
http://thecanaryclub.org/content/view/196/52/

[zkt]

Which are the recent labs ? the ones you posted or the attachment ? And were they after a 7 day fast or not.
Assuming the labs you posted are valid, what I find interesting is:

FSH (Men’s range 1.5-12.4) 10 mIU/mL 2-12 *******high
LuteinizingHormone 4.3 mIU/mL 2-10 ********ok

SHBG 65 H NMOL/L 5-49 ******* way way HIGH
DHT 82 H ng/dL 25-75 ********** way high

But most importantly the pain you mention.
What did the MD say about the pain ?

[benaiah]

I have no recent labs except for 4/9/07 where he tested three things:
T is still low (300 at 2pm)
FSH is still 10
SHBG has lowered to 41 (I didn't get reference range, but doc said, "its ok." Although most people think it still could be binding T and is too high still.)

The labs I posted (attached and today @ 2:19pm) are the same, I just cut and pasted it in. They were from day 3 of a "Master Cleanse" liquid diet I decided to do. water, organic maple syrup, organic lemon juice, and cayenne -all in a drink. 60 ozs/day for ten days.
Most people say it wouldn't have thrown off labs though..

So as it seems, maybe I could lower SHBG ?? and T will rise..
or how about a Clomid "test".

what do you guys think?
Or should I keep waiting?
I have been off P for 7 weeks, and I have never eaten so healthy, and gotten so much good sleep in my life. I rarely drink any coffee or alcohol anymore either. Its pathetic!
I drank two beers last night watching that amazing Sox-Yankees game, GO SOX! and my ballz ache the whole time.
I know I ask this all the time, but do ASIH sufferer's suffer from achey ballz and discomfort down there too as a result of drastically lowered T, or is it not really like that for them??

[zkt]

What did the MD say about the pain ?

[benaiah]

they say its in my head. Or also, some cases of prostatitis have pain in scrotum, and they say it can sometimes take months to go away, so they say it will go away. But I'm just getting sick of waiting. Unfortunately it just sucks!!
And although I am fortunate because I can still get it up to have sex. I just don't have the desire all that much now because all I can feel is my thing hurtin.

Again, I wonder if people with ASIH experience this, when they have very low T levels ??

[zkt]

Could you describe the pain as to :
intensity on a scale of 1- 10
what makes it worse (and better)
constant or intermittant
type ie. dull, sharp, stabbing, etc
location(s)
how long have you experienced this?
when was the onset and what were you doing ?
what meds are you taking for it ?
has it changed over time and if so how ?

[benaiah]

It just aches down there and inside. Its like a constant ache. Like a 3.
If I am walking for example I can't really feel it.
I think its a blood flow problem. because my penis is not quite normal. It is comparable to the various different symptoms you get when you wake up in the middle of the night while you were sleeping on your arm the wrong way or something and its slightly numb. Not a serious version of that, but somewhat comparable.
I want to look into this more. I think its just the prostate is irritated and inflamed or something, and constricting blood vessels and stuff, idk..