Smart drugs and supplements

[HeadDoc]

Originally Posted by pmgamer18

HeadDoc my Dr. tried a lot of meds to help me with fatigue. First stimulants that made my BP go up and my heart race witch was not good for my panic. Then a slow release Ritalin came out called Concerta we tried this and wow my engery was up and my brain fog was much better. I can focus on things much better. I was doing this long before trying SWALE's protocol now I could do with out it buy don't want to. My Dr. said that they are using it for HIV people to help with fatigue and brain fog.

for long term use, I think Concerta is a great med. If started according to protocol, the doc runs ritalin at small doses three times per day until a minimally effective dose is achieved. Then the first dose of concerta is given based on averages of the ritalin data. When done right this takes a few weeks and certainly spares a patient discomfort and prolonged negative reactions if ritalin is not a good match to the individual. Many people experience less "whiplash" as the ritalin is leaving the system under concerta. Otherwize they may experience anxiety and mood swings.

If the use is short term, the dosing and indexing may be too cumbersome for concerta. Many docs though ignore all this and jump into concerta for their patients.

[pmgamer18]

My Dr. had started me on metadate first but it was causing some problems so when Concerta come out we tried 18 mgs. and in 4 weeks upped it to 36 mgs. This has worked dam good for me and I am on ADD.

[Bob Smith]

Originally Posted by HeadDoc

one of my former docs used Provigil to get thru massive amounts of material consumed over some very long study periods and did very well. He did well on his family medicine boards. Yes, ritalin could be used and has been. There is a phenomenon called " state dependant learning". However, for that last minute push, and under some conditions of sleep deprivation, many an MD and PhD have made friends with the amphetamines. The military made no secret over the use of amphetamines with fighter pilots during both Gulf Wars.

What are the downside risks to ritalin (or similar) drugs in normal adults? Once commencing usage of ritalin, how long does it take to notice a difference in cognitive function?

Also, Ive heard it said many times from many people that "normal" people who use ritalin react differently than ADD/ADHD do to treatment. In other words, ADHD people become normal, while normal people get all hyper. Is there any truth to this? Not that I really mind being hyper, its kinda fun, which is why I like ephedrine.

[pmgamer18]

I can only speck for my self but when I went on a slow release Ritalin called Concerta. I felt engergetic no more fatigue and my brain fog was much better. Not hyper at all and I tried just pain Ritalin and it made me hyper and I had trouble sleeping on it. But the slow release Concerta is gereat it puts a little into the blood over a 12 hr. day.

[Joe West]

i heard on another board that long term supplementation with piracetam, huperzine and other acetylchlolinease inhibitors eventually lowers acetylchloline receptors in the brain.

this is righted after a month of downtime or so. however, your mileage may vary. but still dont take these things thinking theyre totally without any sides.

[HeadDoc]

Originally Posted by Joe West

i heard on another board that long term supplementation with piracetam, huperzine and other acetylchlolinease inhibitors eventually lowers acetylchloline receptors in the brain.

this is righted after a month of downtime or so. however, your mileage may vary. but still dont take these things thinking theyre totally without any sides.

this raises an interesting point. Does the value of the supplement get lost in some habituation process or does the preceived effect of the supplement diminish over time? I honestly don't know. I periodically stop my cognitive supplements if I notice a decline in focus or memory. I do the same with provigil. I've used the supplements and provigil for as long as a year continuously without much of noticeable change. If I find some research to clarify the issue, I'll post it. Sorry that I took so long to get back to your post.

[marianco]

This is one of my favorite subjects!

A good starting resource are the books (Smart Drugs and Smart Drugs II) by Ward Dean MD and John Morgenthaler.

With all the drugs and supplements, however, is high variability in whether or not they will work.

There is a higher likelihood of success if the substance addresses a deficit or dysfunction in function, e.g. a mental disorder or nutritional deficiency or hormone imbalance, etc.

Side effects of the subtances often limit their effectiveness - often directly opposing the intended effect.

One example is the use of acetylcholinesterase inhibitors in people who do not have a deficit in acetylcholine production (e.g. those who don't have alzheimer's disease). One of the functions of acetylcholine (accomplished by interneurons - neurons that connect neurons traveling in parallel) is to inhibit dopamine release - regulating dopamine levels in certain parts of the brain. Excessive acetylcholine levels then may impair memory by inhibiting dopamine release.

It is important to optimize but not create an imbalance by excess in the neuroendocrine system in order to improve brain function since the system functions as an integrated whole.

In regard to hormones, optimal levels are crucial to optimize brain functioning. Estrogen is necessary to improve glucose utilization, to promote nerve growth (primarily in women) and new connections, to increase production of receptors for serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine and androgens, to act as a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (increasing serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine), among its myriad functions. Progesterone is necessary to control activty of serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, GABA and glutamate. Testosterone controls dopamine levels - and I suspect has the nerve growth function that estrogen has in women.

I believe optimized levels of estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone significantly improves attention and formation of memory. I have seen the greatest improvements in attention, memory, and abilty to think when these three are optimized. The improvement generaly is very rapid. Interestingly, as we age, the relationships of these hormones become impaired - often with reductions in testosterone and progesterone in both men and women. These contribute to the memory problems most people over 40 experience and call "CRS Syndrome" - or Can't Remeber Shit Syndrome. Of course, few physicians measure hormone levels in people and thus this is a huge hidden problem.

Stimulants (by increasing dopamine and norepinephrine) can reliably improve brain function by speeding brain activity and increasing stamina - allowing longer periods of study. They are limited, however, in people who do not have attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder (which I believe is a disorder or dopamine resistance) because of adverse effects from short duration of action and excessive dopamine and norepinephrine levels. These include withdrawal effects, abuse, and adrenal insufficiency (from higher stress levels induced by excess norepinephrine levels). Adrenal insufficiency impairs a person's ability to produce glucose as needed to handle stress. This then impairs one's ability to attend to tasks and to form memory. Thus balance and avoidance of excessive use needs to be kept in mind in order to use stimulants reliably. For most stimulants, only short term use can be done to avoid adverse effects. Of course, I don't condone illegal use of stimulants.

A problem of excessive stimulant use is impaired sleep. The REM sleep stage is necessary to consolidate and store memory. Animals, such as the turkey, who do not have REM sleep, have poor ability to retain memories. Sleep deprivation itself impairs attention, judgment, and forces the brain to resort to microbursts of sleep - which in turn leads to accidents. Thus sleep deprivation impairs optimum brain function.

Another factor in stimulant use is a limitation in the type of learning that can be done. For example, Caffeine - the most commonly used stimulant in the world - gives you the stamina to learn more, but it primarily is best with rote learning. It makes memorization of facts easier, but creative thinking is inhibited. Stimulants, such as Ritalin, in excess, can make a person more obsessive. Obsessiveness can be considered a condition of excess attention - excessive to the point one cannot shift away from the subject at hand, limiting one's ability to parallel think, to multitask, to do non-linear thinking. One, then, can become rule-bound, impaired in ability to think creatively, or understand a subject conceptually as opposed to the memorization of facts.

It is highly important to address insulin resistance to optimize brain function. Usually, when I see a fasting glucose of 105-124 (which often is called a pre-diabetic condition and is not treated), I think that person has insulin resistance. Insulin resistance directly impairs nerve electrical signal transmission and neurotransmiter release by impairing glucose utilization. Insulin resistance also causes multiple hormone impairments, including reduced testosterone productionl. Glucophage (metformin) and numerous other supplements including biotin (a B-vitamin) can reduce insulin resistance with relative safety.

[freedomfighter]

Great thread,,,Obviously moderation is called for and once again each individual has to find out what works for him,,,Are we all lab rats???FF

[Vforcer2]

Would I be correct in stating that all amphetimine type drugs such as concerta, adderall, etc., are all "neuro-toxic", and can in the long term cause some brain damage?

I had a short stint of using low dose adderall(a few months), which worked very well for helping me work at finishing mundane and boring tasks, however I did observe that I picked up a "tick" after using it. I began stuttering for a couple of months. I am thankful that the stutter has dissapated (perhaps due to some type of regeneration in the brain).

I would be interested in Marianco's input on this.

There does appear to be two smart drugs that have proven efficacious and they are Modafinil and Aricept (Donepezil HCL).

http://nootropics.com/smartdrugs/sharper-minds.html

Some quoted studies on this board(warning these guys can be space cadet geeky ):

http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.p...&f=169&t=12091

FYI, Thyroid and Testosterone optimization have been of the greatest benefit for my personal age related cognative decline.

[cpeil2]

Originally Posted by Vforcer2

Would I be correct in stating that all amphetimine type drugs such as concerta, adderall, etc., are all "neuro-toxic", and can in the long term cause some brain damage?

I

That's quite a leap.