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Old 04-13-2007, 07:08 PM
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Default Solving the puzzle (Thyroid, HCG and Testosterone)

The past 3 day's have been terrible for me as i am sure everyone can imagine, i've never felt so alone and down in my entire life. I will reply to everyone that contacted me and try my best to give proper answers. I feel at home on this forum and have made some excellent and caring friends.

I would like to hear some peoples opinion on this theory i have. For the past few weeks i have thought my symptoms were low E2 related. After seriously thinking about my situation i am starting to figure things out more and more. I believe my problems are "possibly" thyroid related and NOT just T. However i believe fixing one will repair the other.

I don't have any piturity issues, i am technically half-primary hypogonadic.

Let me explain. I got a varicocele on my left testicle, varicocele is KNOWN to cause over-heating of the testicles and abnormal steriod secretion (testosterone, etc) from the testicles due to bad blood flow. Basically a large vein that is slow moving surrounds the testicle and over-heat's it. Now one of the first thing's i noticed was my scrotum skin thinning due to this over-heating and hanging lower. Now it would make sense that if the thryoid controls body temputre and blood flow to the body parts, then it might try and "cool" me down a bit to keep my testicles producing sperm at the normal (and required) temputure. This thyroid change could have a knock on effect on everything else including libido, skin, etc.

I also noticed my testicle shrinking due to the over-heating and this in turn lead to all the hormonal problems. However i believe a MASSIVE domino effect occured that made getting proper treatment for this difficult and maybe why i am NOT responding well to TRT. I simply haven't thought long enough about how this is effecting me.

1 week before i got the testicular injury, by chance i was tested for low energy and tiredness. I didn't have a single t issue then and no varicocele (because the injury hadn't happened). However my TSH came back at 0.8. I didn't get other hormones tested then.

After getting the varicocele, my testicle shrank and within 2 months (with no treatment intervention) my T was low and also TSH up to 1.8. I noticed that my penis was shrunk up due to the low t but also free t was low at this point. My E2 was "normal" (right on the bottom of the male scale). LH/FSH were elevated.

I noticed that while my penis was shrunk up, it still seemed like "good" blood flow existed and it wasn't like a blood flow issue as such. It still felt "full" (for lack of a better expression).

I was put on androgel at 5's daily. After a few day's i noticed improved erections and slightly better libido. All the other symptoms remained.

I was retested and T came back at 25.2nmol but TSH was up to 2.1. I noticed a reduction in penile sensativity and also flaccid size. I also noticed the penis glans weren't as "hard" as usual. I wasn't sure if this was T, E2, DHT or free t causing this.

It was still very difficult to get erections. I noticed i was cold allot of the time and had sore joints, dry skin and such like. All which could be either low E2 or thryoid related.

I noticed when i was in a warm place (like bed) or a shower everything would hang and "feel" normal again. Blood flow as increased to penis, testicles, hands, feet, etc and i would feel warmer (naturally because the shower was warm) and in some cases capable of getting a semi-decent erection.

So here is my dilema, obviosuly LH has a role in this to some degree and a functional HPTA is important for thyroid. Since i have now had the varicocele repaired (though a small sub-clinical varicocele still exists) would HCG help lower TSH and improve blood flow to testicles, penis and hopefully help libido.

Can anyone explain the relationship between LH, Thryoid hormones and estridol that could be causing my problems? Would HCG be enough to improve these symptoms? Should i stop all TRT and do HCG alone at 250iu daily?

I believe bad blood flow could be caused by thyroid or low E2. However when i speak to other guy's with low E2 they don't have as many problems as me which makes me think the problem really is thryoid related in my case. Are there any suppliments (not drugs) that could improve my TSH (lower it)? I noticed that most young guy's with even high E2 (such as masterpp - also a varicocele sufferer) have no erection problems, so i really need to start considering other options here.
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Old 04-13-2007, 07:35 PM
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Default Re: Solving the puzzle (Thyroid, HCG and Testosterone)

hcg would lower TSH because hcg increases cAMP which is the main enyzmes which triggers the cascade of events in the hypothalamus which would cause more thyroid hormone to be released which would send a negative feed back loop to the brain to tell the body it does not need as much thyroid and tsh would drop. Sound like a plain
Havre you looked into thyroid antibodies or Thyoid binding globulin these also will give a better indication if there is estrogen or something else that could be blocking it. Never count out adrenals because with all the emotional and phyiscal stress that you have been under I can assure you that they have taken a beating and may need to rebalance them selves which in turn will increase thyroid production too

Last edited by hardasnails1973; 04-13-2007 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 04-13-2007, 07:35 PM
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Default Re: Solving the puzzle (Thyroid, HCG and Testosterone)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megazoid
The past 3 day's have been terrible for me as i am sure everyone can imagine, i've never felt so alone and down in my entire life. I will reply to everyone that contacted me and try my best to give proper answers. I feel at home on this forum and have made some excellent and caring friends.

I would like to hear some peoples opinion on this theory i have. For the past few weeks i have thought my symptoms were low E2 related. After seriously thinking about my situation i am starting to figure things out more and more. I believe my problems are "possibly" thyroid related and NOT just T. However i believe fixing one will repair the other.

I don't have any piturity issues, i am technically half-primary hypogonadic.

Let me explain. I got a varicocele on my left testicle, varicocele is KNOWN to cause over-heating of the testicles and abnormal steriod secretion (testosterone, etc) from the testicles due to bad blood flow. Basically a large vein that is slow moving surrounds the testicle and over-heat's it. Now one of the first thing's i noticed was my scrotum skin thinning due to this over-heating and hanging lower. Now it would make sense that if the thryoid controls body temputre and blood flow to the body parts, then it might try and "cool" me down a bit to keep my testicles producing sperm at the normal (and required) temputure. This thyroid change could have a knock on effect on everything else including libido, skin, etc.

I also noticed my testicle shrinking due to the over-heating and this in turn lead to all the hormonal problems. However i believe a MASSIVE domino effect occured that made getting proper treatment for this difficult and maybe why i am NOT responding well to TRT. I simply haven't thought long enough about how this is effecting me.

1 week before i got the testicular injury, by chance i was tested for low energy and tiredness. I didn't have a single t issue then and no varicocele (because the injury hadn't happened). However my TSH came back at 0.8. I didn't get other hormones tested then.

After getting the varicocele, my testicle shrank and within 2 months (with no treatment intervention) my T was low and also TSH up to 1.8. I noticed that my penis was shrunk up due to the low t but also free t was low at this point. My E2 was "normal" (right on the bottom of the male scale). LH/FSH were elevated.

I noticed that while my penis was shrunk up, it still seemed like "good" blood flow existed and it wasn't like a blood flow issue as such. It still felt "full" (for lack of a better expression).

I was put on androgel at 5's daily. After a few day's i noticed improved erections and slightly better libido. All the other symptoms remained.

I was retested and T came back at 25.2nmol but TSH was up to 2.1. I noticed a reduction in penile sensativity and also flaccid size. I also noticed the penis glans weren't as "hard" as usual. I wasn't sure if this was T, E2, DHT or free t causing this.

It was still very difficult to get erections. I noticed i was cold allot of the time and had sore joints, dry skin and such like. All which could be either low E2 or thryoid related.

I noticed when i was in a warm place (like bed) or a shower everything would hang and "feel" normal again. Blood flow as increased to penis, testicles, hands, feet, etc and i would feel warmer (naturally because the shower was warm) and in some cases capable of getting a semi-decent erection.

So here is my dilema, obviosuly LH has a role in this to some degree and a functional HPTA is important for thyroid. Since i have now had the varicocele repaired (though a small sub-clinical varicocele still exists) would HCG help lower TSH and improve blood flow to testicles, penis and hopefully help libido.

Can anyone explain the relationship between LH, Thryoid hormones and estridol that could be causing my problems? Would HCG be enough to improve these symptoms? Should i stop all TRT and do HCG alone at 250iu daily?

I believe bad blood flow could be caused by thyroid or low E2. However when i speak to other guy's with low E2 they don't have as many problems as me which makes me think the problem really is thryoid related in my case. Are there any suppliments (not drugs) that could improve my TSH (lower it)? I noticed that most young guy's with even high E2 (such as masterpp - also a varicocele sufferer) have no erection problems, so i really need to start considering other options here.
On another thread I have posted schedule and dose for Testosterone and HCG, stick with it (you hurting you self by making frequent changes)
If this will not help my next advice will be to skip HCG and let the testicle shrink, they will not bother you any more.
But give the T+HCG combo a 6 month chance.
Get FreeT3 and FreeT4, post results here.
Post all your lattest tests on one separate post and refer to it in future posts.

Last edited by JanSz; 04-13-2007 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 04-13-2007, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: Solving the puzzle (Thyroid, HCG and Testosterone)

Guy's, i am seriously sitting back in pure shock here, i think i might have nailed not only mine, but other forum members problems due to this finding. I know a few other members had identical symptoms and problems. Can't believe i over-looked this so much. I was reading a website about iodine and i match almost "all" the pre hypothyroidism problems. Quote taken from site:

"Iodine deficiency may eventually lead to hypothyroidism, which causes a variety of symptoms including fatigue, weight gain, weakness and/or depression. Interestingly, iodine deficiency can also cause hyperthyroidism, a condition characterized by weight loss, rapid heart beat, and appetite fluctations."

I have fatigue, depression, rapid heart beat (not always, but allot of the time i notice heart beat changes), weight loss and appetite fluctations (on a huge scale).

Should i uptake iodine supplimentation? I found this website very helpful:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...trient&dbid=69

I think i am slowly but surely figuring this out and think thryoid is my problem. How to best address the adrenals? I don't want to start messing with hormones that could over-complicate things.

Would these suppliments be wise to get and would they have a positive effect on TSH (i.e. lower it):

http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pag...&np=1&cpid=440
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Old 04-13-2007, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: Solving the puzzle (Thyroid, HCG and Testosterone)

No don't take Iodine unless your tested low don't go off half cocked on this get it tested go to this site and read up on this. I am at the men's thyroid forum there.
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/
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Old 04-13-2007, 08:43 PM
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Default Re: Solving the puzzle (Thyroid, HCG and Testosterone)

Phil, i found an old post of mariancos and he mentioned how thyroid hormones fight for the same receptor sites as E2, T and DHT.

What harm would it do to take iodine supplimentation? I was considering eating more natural food's with iodine content (yogart, strawberrys, etc). These kelp tablets looked promising.

So HCG would definitelly have a positive effect on thryoid?
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Old 04-13-2007, 08:50 PM
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Default Re: Solving the puzzle (Thyroid, HCG and Testosterone)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megazoid
Phil, i found an old post of mariancos and he mentioned how thyroid hormones fight for the same receptor sites as E2, T and DHT.

What harm would it do to take iodine supplimentation? I was considering eating more natural food's with iodine content (yogart, strawberrys, etc). These kelp tablets looked promising.

So HCG would definitelly have a positive effect on thryoid?
Yes HCG will help some but the best bet is to get the right tests done. You need Free T3 and Free T4 with TSH and a morning cortisol test. At the link I gave you there are tests for you in the UK Saliva test that are the best for this that you can order your self. Here is a cut & paste.
================================================== ========================
4) United Kingdom Labwork from NP Tech, where they will send out the kit for an ASI (adrenal stress test), plus sex hormones and a full thyroid panel etc. (thanks to “Mo” for this info)
http://www.nptech.co.uk

5) United Kingdom Labwork from Red Apple Clinic. Thyroid, Adrenals, and others. (thanks to Crunchie for this info).
www.redappleclinic.co.uk

6) Australian Labwork from Analytical Reference Laboratories (ARL) or PathLab You can’t order the kits yourself, unfortunately, but can convince your doctor. Just ring either of these labs and ask what doctor in your area uses their kits. ARL: 568 St Kilda Road Melbourne,Victoria, Australia, 3004; (61-3) 9529-2922; fax (61-3) 9529-7277 info@arlaus.com.au. or PathLab: 68 Burwood Highway, Burwood, Victoria 3125, (61-3) 8831-3000; Fax (61-3) 9808 2247; (Nutritional Laboratory Services), Ed Sorich Integrative Medicine Dept; www.pathlab.com.au

TSH: This is the abbreviation for Thyroid Stimulating Hormone, and is also known as thyrotropin. It’s produced and stored in the Pituitary gland, and is released to stimulate your thyroid to release more hormones. When your TSH rises high, it means your thyroid isn’t doing it’s job, and the TSH is saying “Produce! Produce!” On the other side of the coin, when the TSH goes low, it can mean your thyroid is overproducing, called hyperthyroid. But patients have consistently found the TSH lab to be a lousy measure with a dubious “normal” range, causing a patient to go for years without diagnosis. It often lags behind what is really going on, or it can be affected by factors including hypopituitary, acute stress, extreme illness, or the first trimester of pregnancy, etc. And bottom line, our experience has shown that the stated “normal” ranges are flawed.

Additionally, you can have a very low TSH during a one time lab test, yet have an untested high TSH a few days later. That fluctuation is indicative of Hashimoto’s or an attack of the thyroid, causing swings between hypo and hyper.

And once you start on treatment, patients have noted that when they are kept within the range–even at the lower end–they continue to have symptoms!

Free T4: T4 is the storage form of thyroid hormone, called levothyroxine or l-thyroxine, and it’s “main” purpose is to convert to the active hormone T3. Note the word “free” before T4. Free measures what is available and unbound. Without the free, you are measuring the “total” T4, which gives incomplete information. Make it clear to your doctor that you want the FREE.

Free T3: T3 is the active thyroid hormone, also called triiodothyronine, and can be the most important lab you will do. You can have a so-called normal TSH, but if your free T3 is low in the range, that is a strong sign of your hypothyroid status. As with the T4, it’s important to get your FREE T3 lab, not simply T3.

Though most of the T3 in your body is produced by the conversion of T4 to T3, there is also a direct release of T3 from the thyroid. T3 is the active hormone which is responsible for your overall good health, metabolism, immune strength, etc. A good level of T3 is what prevents chronic low grade depression, high cholesterol, dry skin and hair….the list is endless.

When patients get on Armour, their optimal dose is most often the amount that gets their free T3 at the top of the range, if not slightly over in some patients, with no hyper. The free T4 is often mid-range, and the TSH is most often suppressed. The latter does NOT equate to having osteopororis or heart problems.

ANTIBODIES: Antibodies are proteins produced by your immune system in response to a problem. If your labs come back above-range for thyroid antibodies, you can have an autoimmune thyroid disease, also called thyroiditis or Hashimoto’s, which means your thyroid is being attacked.

There are two forms–one set targeting your thyroid peroxidase (an enzyme that is important in the production of your thyroid hormones) and the other targeting your thyroglobulin (a protein carrier for your thyroid hormones). It is not uncommon for one to be in range, and the other to far out of range. The latter fact is why you need BOTH tested.

Make sure you are taking Selenium, since studies show it can help reduce the TPO antibodies. I have not yet found research as to if it can lower the thyroglobin antibodies.

Even with the presence of antibodies, you can initially have a so-called “normal” TSH and the lack of symptoms. But down the line, you WILL get symptoms of the attack, which can include vascillating between hypo and hyper, and eventually becoming a raging hypo. So, it’s important to “tackle the attack”, and patients have found great success when they are willing to dose high enough with Armour. Armour, when raised high enough, appears to remove the signal that creates the attack.

IMPORTANT: if your labs show that you have antibodies, all labwork has to be thrown out the window when it comes to using them for diagnosis. Why? Because antibodies mean an attack is going on, and an attack means you will swing between hypo and hyper. One lab will look hyper, and the unknowing doc will tell you to decrease your Armour…when in reality, you need to INCREASE your Armour to eventually STOP the attack. With antibodies present, you have to dose by the elimination of symptoms, NOT labs.

A large goiter or thyroid gland can accompany some cases of Hashimotos. Or, you can feel a discomfort when you swallow, and a tightness around the neck area. Elevated thyroid antibodies have been linked to a wide array of non-thyroid diseases including chronic inflammatory bowel disease and diabetes.

CORTISOL and FERRITIN

ADDITIONAL LABS TO CONSIDER: Many thyroid patients have benefited from getting other labwork, including DHEA, testosterone, progesterone, estrogen. The creator of this site found her testosterone to be quite low, even though she had no symptoms of it. Her doctor helped her start supplementation and she found the surprise result of the complete removal of low back pain upon waking. Other female patients with low sex drives found that the testosterone supplementation renewed their drives.
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Old 04-13-2007, 10:08 PM
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Default Re: Solving the puzzle (Thyroid, HCG and Testosterone)

Megazoid (everybody else too) go to forums index

then scroll down to Nutrition/Supplements Forum

click it ,then scroll down to thread titled "Iodine Deficiency by Jeffrey Dach" posted by jdach

this just blew me away on my views on iodine supplementation (good info)
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Old 04-13-2007, 10:12 PM
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Default Re: Solving the puzzle (Thyroid, HCG and Testosterone)

Thanks for the info buddy, will check this asap.

I am seriously considering starting this kelp or modifying diet to improve thyroid function. This website was really intresting:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...trient&dbid=69
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